IPE innotech Catless full exhaust and increased emission (check engine light)

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

I mean is the excessive richness due to the design of the bungs? Or simply because of not running a tune and being cat less? I was under the assumption that if you used something the Delete R, you wouldn't run that rich and that the car since its on a wide band setup would correct itself to within 'norms'.

Also I have a question for you. What is the advantage of say a flash software vs what VISHNU has now developed in their piggyback setup? I mean for me, the biggest issue I have with flash tunes is with regard to warranty concerns. As I have heard that these flash tunes are indeed detectable on the DME even if you have flashed back to stock. Otherwise I would have gone with a tune for sure.

A Vishnu setup is still detectable too as it leaves physical traces of modification. If the technician really wanted to, he could always trace it down regardless.

My preference has always been to flash in place of a piggyback if flashing is possible.

The richness of the fuel mixture is minimally due to the car being cat-less, the MSS60 DME does a great job of making compensations so the car to runs correctly without issues (however still on the rich side of things, but not enough for long term issues and component failure).

Not me or anyone that has had a flash that I know of here locally has had an issue with the dealership for having a flash tune. It's always best to be honest with your SA about your potential and current modifications. Interestingly enough, most dealerships I have encountered have had more concerns about aftermarket suspension parts over bolt on engine parts and tunes.

Malek

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

A Vishnu setup is still detectable too as it leaves physical traces of modification. If the technician really wanted to, he could always trace it down regardless.

My preference has always been to flash in place of a piggyback if flashing is possible.

The richness of the fuel mixture is minimally due to the car being cat-less, the MSS60 DME does a great job of making compensations so the car to runs correctly without issues (however still on the rich side of things, but not enough for long term issues and component failure).

Not me or anyone that has had a flash that I know of here locally has had an issue with the dealership for having a flash tune. It's always best to be honest with your SA about your potential and current modifications. Interestingly enough, most dealerships I have encountered have had more concerns about aftermarket suspension parts over bolt on engine parts and tunes.

Malek

Hmm.. physical traces? As in cut wires and such? But does it leave anything on the DME? I really want a tune man, but just paranoid and I have 2.5 years left on warranty. Thank you for your input.

[SchnellM3]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

Wait.. won't the obdII work fine with the Delete- R installed? I thought that was the point of having the external connection still viable.

No they Akra Delete R pulgs and stays in the OBD port, you just simply route the componets to it behind the footwell trim pieces so it looks OEM. It needs to be pulled out before you can scan for codes.

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Car running excessively rich being one. In which during our testing in the R&D phase, damaged the o2 sensors (primaries) due to overly rich condition.

One of the secondary sensor also saw damage from accumulation and stopped responding all together.

This is part of the reason we have greatly delayed the release of our system, because it shouldn't be put on the market unless it has been tested exhaustively.

Malek

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

A Vishnu setup is still detectable too as it leaves physical traces of modification. If the technician really wanted to, he could always trace it down regardless.

My preference has always been to flash in place of a piggyback if flashing is possible.

The richness of the fuel mixture is minimally due to the car being cat-less, the MSS60 DME does a great job of making compensations so the car to runs correctly without issues (however still on the rich side of things, but not enough for long term issues and component failure).

Not me or anyone that has had a flash that I know of here locally has had an issue with the dealership for having a flash tune. It's always best to be honest with your SA about your potential and current modifications. Interestingly enough, most dealerships I have encountered have had more concerns about aftermarket suspension parts over bolt on engine parts and tunes.

Malek

The car is going to run rich without a tune and the cats removed, as any system would cause some type of increase. Was this in testing the IPE setup or just from developing your own? As you stated its perfectly fine to run the car like that so I'm a little confused as to the point of the first post saying it'll damage the car then saying you'll be fine?

I've had no issues with anything on mine except for what the OP was about, which is easily corrected provided he just drives the car around for a few days and it'll take care of itself. In itself its just the car reacting to the change, it never enters Limp mode and for all the other thousands of miles on it has worked as advertised.

[MR///M3]

I've had an Innotech exhaust for 3 months now and I haven't thrown a CEL or anything. I would contact eric@pyspeed because they guarantee no CEL.

[MK599]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Car running excessively rich being one. In which during our testing in the R&D phase, damaged the o2 sensors (primaries) due to overly rich condition.

One of the secondary sensor also saw damage from accumulation and stopped responding all together.

This is part of the reason we have greatly delayed the release of our system, because it shouldn't be put on the market unless it has been tested exhaustively.

Malek

Was this only observed in the innotech xpipe or other brands as well. How about a challenge race or race+ pipes?

[SchnellM3]

Originally Posted by MK599

Was this only observed in the innotech xpipe or other brands as well. How about a challenge race or race+ pipes?

I don't even think they were testing out any specific brand, only testing out their own design for R&D

[哇靠M3]

I like how he jumps in with no data and gives a bunch of bogus then leaves the thread... IPE FTW

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by WaSai.M3

I like how he jumps in with no data and gives a bunch of bogus then leaves the thread... IPE FTW

LOL.. I thought he was being friendly. But yes there is a lot of ambiguity with regard to tune vs no tune etc.

[Malek@MRF]

We never intended to come here and throw some information around, then leave. My apologies if it seemed that way.

We have no reason to test another brand, however I can shed light on a matter when another brand copied one of our initial designs which we considered a failure. I felt this information is pertinent to IPE owners.

The IPE bung extensions were a direct copy of the ones we developed for our units initially. As said earlier, after months of testing on 2 BMW M3's (2011, and 2009, one 6MT and one DCT), we found faults in the designed and decided to do away with it.

Lets be clear.. It is fine if the car wants to run on the rich side of the scale due to catalyst removal and not using a tune to optimize the AF mixture. This is true. However, it is not fine to run the car without any catalyst with the way the Innotech system used their bung extension. The part that is NOT fine, is the affect it has on the vehicles electrical components (the pre and post catalyst sensors).

If the mid-section being used is a typical cat-less system with the bungs in the standard position and placement, then there will be no adverse affects on any of the sensors, the car will simply run on the richer side of the scale.

Again, I will make it as clear as I can, the Innotech system will cause an excessive rich condition because of the post catalyst sensor placement and bung design.

In our initial testing on our first design of post cat sensor bungs (what Innotech ended up copying), we found that without a tune the car was running between 10.5-11.0 AFR. For those that are wondering, the lower the number, the richer the Air/Fuel ratio. The higher the number, the leaner the mixture.

Now it is true that a 10.5-11.0 AFR shouldn't cause premature component failure usually, but combined with the post catalyst sensor bung placement and bung extension, the sensor eventually became saturated and clogged. The sensor then becomes stuck, and unresponsive.

Let me know if I missed anything for you guys.

Malek

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

We never intended to come here and throw some information around, then leave. My apologies if it seemed that way.

We have no reason to test another brand, however I can shed light on a matter when another brand copied one of our initial designs which we considered a failure. I felt this information is pertinent to IPE owners.

The IPE bung extensions were a direct copy of the ones we developed for our units initially. As said earlier, after months of testing on 2 BMW M3's (2011, and 2009, one 6MT and one DCT), we found faults in the designed and decided to do away with it.

Lets be clear.. It is fine if the car wants to run on the rich side of the scale due to catalyst removal and not using a tune to optimize the AF mixture. This is true. However, it is not fine to run the car without any catalyst with the way the Innotech system used their bung extension. The part that is NOT fine, is the affect it has on the vehicles electrical components (the pre and post catalyst sensors).

If the mid-section being used is a typical cat-less system with the bungs in the standard position and placement, then there will be no adverse affects on any of the sensors, the car will simply run on the richer side of the scale.

Again, I will make it as clear as I can, the Innotech system will cause an excessive rich condition because of the post catalyst sensor placement and bung design.

In our initial testing on our first design of post cat sensor bungs (what Innotech ended up copying), we found that without a tune the car was running between 10.5-11.0 AFR. For those that are wondering, the lower the number, the richer the Air/Fuel ratio. The higher the number, the leaner the mixture.

Now it is true that a 10.5-11.0 AFR shouldn't cause premature component failure usually, but combined with the post catalyst sensor bung placement and bung extension, the sensor eventually became saturated and clogged. The sensor then becomes stuck, and unresponsive.

Let me know if I missed anything for you guys.

Malek

This is great info! Now let me you ask you this? Would the Delete R cause any of these similar issues? Or is is specific to just the way the bungs are placed IE the innotech system? Would the Delete R also run excessively rich? More so than just running the exhaust with SES light on?

I know Evolve doesn't even touch their AFR ratio. So what is the advantage to the tune? Besides the increased power? Seems like they employ a similar method of disabling the SES light as the Delete R. Thanks again. I am fascinated by this sort of thing.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

This is great info! Now let me you ask you this? Would the Delete R cause any of these similar issues? Or is is specific to just the way the bungs are placed IE the innotech system? Would the Delete R also run excessively rich? More so than just running the exhaust with SES light on?

I know Evolve doesn't even touch their AFR ratio. So what is the advantage to the tune? Besides the increased power? Seems like they employ a similar method of disabling the SES light as the Delete R. Thanks again. I am fascinated by this sort of thing.

The Akrapovic Delete-R unit will not have any adverse affects, as its basic job is like a mini hand held scan tool that periodically clears the codes (even pending codes). For those using the Delete-R, have no worry, it is a fine solution to the codes, however, you will fail readiness testing, especially in California.

The Delete-R will have no affect on Air/Fuel mixture as it doesn't mess with it, is is a completely different approach to masking the SES light.

I am not too familiar with the Evolve tune, however as a flash, it cannot do what the Akrapovic Delete-R is doing. I am not sure what method Evolve uses to achieve their power gains, so I cannot comment on this.

Malek

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

The Akrapovic Delete-R unit will not have any adverse affects, as its basic job is like a mini hand held scan tool that periodically clears the codes (even pending codes). For those using the Delete-R, have no worry, it is a fine solution to the codes, however, you will fail readiness testing, especially in California.

The Delete-R will have no affect on Air/Fuel mixture as it doesn't mess with it, is is a completely different approach to masking the SES light.

I am not too familiar with the Evolve tune, however as a flash, it cannot do what the Akrapovic Delete-R is doing. I am not sure what method Evolve uses to achieve their power gains, so I cannot comment on this.

Malek

Oh no I didn't mean that the Evolve tune gains power via the Delete R modality, bur rather most tunes do something along the same lines of the Deleter R with regard to the cat inefficiency.

I read a post by Sal with regard to their tuning and he stated that they don't modify the AFR nor the ignition timing.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

Oh no I didn't mean that the Evolve tune gains power via the Delete R modality, bur rather most tunes do something along the same lines of the Deleter R with regard to the cat inefficiency.

I read a post by Sal with regard to their tuning and he stated that they don't modify the AFR nor the ignition timing.

If they do not modify the Air/Fuel mixture nor adjust ignition timing, how is Evolve gaining their power?

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

If they do not modify the Air/Fuel mixture nor adjust ignition timing, how is Evolve gaining their power?

Here you go.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=66

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

If they do not modify the Air/Fuel mixture nor adjust ignition timing, how is Evolve gaining their power?

hmm?

[MR///M3]

I don't understand how you think they copied you. There is only do much you can do with placement of these bungs and it is entirely possible that they came up with the design completely by themselves. Especially since they are in Asia and you are in America (and have a tiny company that most people have never heard of, no offense).

It's ridiculous how many people on this forum say bad things about other companies just to better their own company image. And don't tell me that is not what you are doing, because covering it up by saying you "only want to inform other members about the truth" doesn't do anything for me.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by MR///M3

I don't understand how you think they copied you. There is only do much you can do with placement of these bungs and it is entirely possible that they came up with the design completely by themselves. Especially since they are in Asia and you are in America (and have a tiny company that most people have never heard of, no offense).

It's ridiculous how many people on this forum say bad things about other companies just to better their own company image. And don't tell me that is not what you are doing, because covering it up by saying you "only want to inform other members about the truth" doesn't do anything for me.

Nothing bad was said about Innotech. It was simply stated that the bung design is not 100% and will not work in 100% of the cases. I personally have nothing against them as they are not my competitor.

As I said earlier, the information was posted for the benefit of others. I have nothing to gain from it.

Malek

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by MR///M3

I don't understand how you think they copied you. There is only do much you can do with placement of these bungs and it is entirely possible that they came up with the design completely by themselves. Especially since they are in Asia and you are in America (and have a tiny company that most people have never heard of, no offense).

It's ridiculous how many people on this forum say bad things about other companies just to better their own company image. And don't tell me that is not what you are doing, because covering it up by saying you "only want to inform other members about the truth" doesn't do anything for me.

Why do you care if Malekreza says that they copied MRF?

What is IPE's history? I can't find any information on them and had never heard of them before they made this exhaust.

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Nothing bad was said about Innotech. It was simply stated that the bung design is not 100% and will not work in 100% of the cases. I personally have nothing against them as they are not my competitor.

As I said earlier, the information was posted for the benefit of others. I have nothing to gain from it.

Malek

Did you read Sal's post? Curious as to your thoughts.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

Did you read Sal's post? Curious as to your thoughts.

Yes I did. It's still a bit vague as to their method of gaining power. It seems they say they modify the torque tables to achieve their gains.

[Rekrul]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

Yes I did. It's still a bit vague as to their method of gaining power. It seems they say they modify the torque tables to achieve their gains.

Hmmm.. yeah I am a novice with regard to this sort of thing. So I figured you might have some more info/expand a bit.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by Rekrul

Hmmm.. yeah I am a novice with regard to this sort of thing. So I figured you might have some more info/expand a bit.

Just call Evolve, they can explain their tuning philosophy to you.