Possible DCT clutch upgrade

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Soorena

There is a DCT upgrade that can hold whatever torque you throw at it...... It's called 6MT!

Ohhhh no , not again !

[BobS]

I can't believe people still bring up ssp.... Seriously? I haven't heard of one person running them with success. I've heard a rumor that Dodson is working on something, same with gintani, but so far, no release or ability to purchase it.

The real upgrade needs to include a dct reprogram as well as clutches/hardware.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Soorena

There is a DCT upgrade that can hold whatever torque you throw at it...... It's called 6MT!

Uhm... no? You don't think you can break an MT with too much power?

[BobS]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Uhm... no? You don't think you can break an MT with too much power?

I think his point is, there is a actual upgrade for it.... The dct doesn't yet have a proven upgrade for big hp/tq

[SenorFunkyPants]

Didn't Getrag do a "stronger" version of this DCT for Ferrari? Maybe that had uprated clutch disks.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Didn't Getrag do a "stronger" version of this DCT for Ferrari? Maybe that had uprated clutch disks.

Yes, the California's transmission is in the same family but rated for higher power. I don't know what's different mechanically.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Uhm... no? You don't think you can break an MT with too much power?

It's near bulletproof. I can only think of one beefier transmission ever used in a BMW and that's the 560G Getrag in 850CSI (AKA V160 for Supra guys).

Originally Posted by BobS

I think his point is, there is a actual upgrade for it.... The dct doesn't yet have a proven upgrade for big hp/tq

I truly think the hardware is the easy part like you mentioned. Software is where it's at.

Originally Posted by dparm

Yes, the California's transmission is in the same family but rated for higher power. I don't know what's different mechanically.

California has a transaxle.

Originally Posted by VT3M33

Lol , love your avatar

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by VT3M33

DCT's are limited to big HP figures when compared to 6mt, drew is the only one who has successfully tested the limits of the DCT, as far as the 6mt goes ESS and izzy/IMG are the only two (that I know of ) that are going to be pushing 800+whp on stock clutches , well IMG is not Sure what route ESS is going to take considering they are building a 1,000 whp setup but they have clutch upgrades available whereas DCT's don't......

I have a low compression 4.4l built motor going In next month that's capable of 1,000+ whp and I personally would like to see a DCT clutch upgrade....

Again, clutch capability is not rated by hp, it is rated by tq. So quoting hp as a reference is meaningless.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by Soorena

There is a DCT upgrade that can hold whatever torque you throw at it...... It's called 6MT!

Yeah, but then slower. 1 step forward, 1 step back.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by dparm

Yes, the California's transmission is in the same family but rated for higher power. I don't know what's different mechanically.

Yes Its the 7DCI600 for the M3 and the 7DCL750 for the California, with the Ferrari box spec'ed to handle more torque. I have no idea if the DCT clutch packs are interchangeable or if the hydraulic pressure for clamping the clutch plates together is higher. Might be worth looking into for those who are interested.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by VT3M33

Nothing, but when your pushing 800whp it's needed!

Ah I see. So the stock DCT clutch is safe up until what hp/torque?


And MT?

[dvpouldar26]

I know software if the limiting factor here, but as far as hardware goes... You can't really compare Dodson to SSP. Hardware wise, Dodson is simply in another league. Their components are used in most all the big 1300+whp r35 GT-r builds. In addition to clutches they make billet gears for the r35. Nowhere near as many people run SSP. So as far as hardware goes, you can't get much better than Dodson. They also make clutches for the Evo X, Mercedes 7G, Porsche pdk, etc.

[VT3M33]

Originally Posted by dvpouldar26

I know software if the limiting factor here, but as far as hardware goes... You can't really compare Dodson to SSP. Hardware wise, Dodson is simply in another league. Their components are used in most all the big 1300+whp r35 GT-r builds. In addition to clutches they make billet gears for the r35. Nowhere near as many people run SSP. So as far as hardware goes, you can't get much better than Dodson. They also make clutches for the Evo X, Mercedes 7G, Porsche pdk, etc.

I hope they figure out the software..
As far as their hardware goes it's on point!

[VT3M33]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

Ah I see. So the stock DCT clutch is safe up until what hp/torque?


And MT?

Well drew has pushed it to 711whp so far.
As for the 6mt IMG & ESS will give us some results soon !

[Soorena]

People the gearbox in the California is a transaxle. It's not a beefed up version of your DCT or anything similar.

Originally Posted by Hujan

Yeah, but then slower. 1 step forward, 1 step back.

Gain some. Lose some.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by dparm

Why is it long-needed?

The E9x M3/S65 is getting to that point where built motors are going to become more and more common, in addition to more options becoming available -- Harrop's PD supercharger, the Gintani YSI/TT-setups, people adventuring into non-traditional vendor packages "off the shelf" with different blowers, etc. In addition to that next progression in aftermarket for the S65, these setups make a lot more TQ then the stock motor Centri options, and TQ kills transmissions.


It is a testament to the BMW build quality that the stock DCT clutches have held everything thrown at them this far, but my concern would definitely (at higher power) be the long term reliability & if the software continues to play nice (I'm sure there's some TQ-sensitive programing that will trigger a limp/safe mode if it's above a certain threshold).


Realistically, there is NO long term, OEM-like reliable upgrade for any of the big power DCT's out there. Even these Alpha 20, XXX Race, GTR packages continue to occasionally destroy various trans/drivetrain parts when driven at their potential.

[VT3M33]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

The E9x M3/S65 is getting to that point where built motors are going to become more and more common, in addition to more options becoming available -- Harrop's PD supercharger, the Gintani YSI/TT-setups, people adventuring into non-traditional vendor packages "off the shelf" with different blowers, etc. In addition to that next progression in aftermarket for the S65, these setups make a lot more TQ then the stock motor Centri options, and TQ kills transmissions.


It is a testament to the BMW build quality that the stock DCT clutches have held everything thrown at them this far, but my concern would definitely (at higher power) be the long term reliability & if the software continues to play nice (I'm sure there's some TQ-sensitive programing that will trigger a limp/safe mode if it's above a certain threshold).


Realistically, there is NO long term, OEM-like reliable upgrade for any of the big power DCT's out there. Even these Alpha 20, XXX Race, GTR packages continue to occasionally destroy various trans/drivetrain parts when driven at their potential.

Well said

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by dvpouldar26

I know software if the limiting factor here, but as far as hardware goes... You can't really compare Dodson to SSP. Hardware wise, Dodson is simply in another league. Their components are used in most all the big 1300+whp r35 GT-r builds. In addition to clutches they make billet gears for the r35. Nowhere near as many people run SSP. So as far as hardware goes, you can't get much better than Dodson. They also make clutches for the Evo X, Mercedes 7G, Porsche pdk, etc.

Are you saying that you can't just go into DriveLogic Mode-6 and calibrate the aftermarket clutches? I've been searching through ISTA repair procedures all morning for DCT clutch installations and can't find anything to corroborate that. ISTA did mention training the "Kiss Point" was required after the clutch installation. But I couldn't find anything about that. If it were as easy as driving around, I assume they would have said that.

Do any of the actual BMW tech's on the forum have more information about the DCT calibration procedure, or this thing called "Kiss Point?"

[dparm]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Are you saying that you can't just go into DriveLogic Mode-6 and calibrate the aftermarket clutches? I've been searching through ISTA repair procedures all morning for DCT clutch installations and can't find anything to corroborate that. ISTA did mention training the "Kiss Point" was required after the clutch installation. But I couldn't find anything about that. If it were as easy as driving around, I assume they would have said that.

Do any of the actual BMW tech's on the forum have more information about the DCT calibration procedure, or this thing called "Kiss Point?"

I thought you can reset the DCT "adaptations" with certain BMW service tools? Benvo can chime in here and clarify, I'm sure.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by dparm

I thought you can reset the DCT "adaptations" with certain BMW service tools? Benvo can chime in here and clarify, I'm sure.

There is a gearbox and clutch learning/adaptation procedure. It's along the same lines of the procedure with SMG cars where you feel the car sort-of harshly shift through the gears while stopped. There is also a third procedure for DCT but I can't think of what it's called. I can check when I get back to LA as I have a DCT M3 there.

After the calibration procedure, the DCT control unit stores information regarding the gearbox and clutch characteristics and uses them as a factor in gearbox operation.

As far as SSP, according to their engineer that I spoke with in person, the clutches are supposed to be broken in with S6. Driving in D will cause clutch pack failure. I'm not sure sure why as I am not a hardware guy.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

There is a gearbox and clutch learning/adaptation procedure. It's along the same lines of the procedure with SMG cars where you feel the car sort-of harshly shift through the gears while stopped. There is also a third procedure for DCT but I can't think of what it's called. I can check when I get back to LA as I have a DCT M3 there.

After the calibration procedure, the DCT control unit stores information regarding the gearbox and clutch characteristics and uses them as a factor in gearbox operation.

As far as SSP, according to their engineer that I spoke with in person, the clutches are supposed to be broken in with S6. Driving in D will cause clutch pack failure. I'm not sure sure why as I am not a hardware guy.

That's all fine and dandy, but the problem with SSP is the clutches never passed dealer calibration procedures. They failed every time. So if you can't calibrate the clutches in the first place, then you can't break them in with S6. It cost Drew his transmission...never got past calibration.

Yeah in ISTA, I could see three calibration procedures called out. I was only intrigued by the "Kiss Point" procedure, so I searched and searched and couldn't find it. But I did find something else very interesting while searching. If you inhale air conditioning refrigerant and stop breathing, according to BMW, one should administer the "kiss of life" to the guy. Sounds like a fairy tale procedure to me.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

As far as SSP, according to their engineer that I spoke with in person, the clutches are supposed to be broken in with S6. Driving in D will cause clutch pack failure. I'm not sure sure why as I am not a hardware guy.

I would assume that means SSP has a car working/running with their DCT upgrade to know it requires a break-in on S6..... Could they comment about this car in any way?? Stock, Bolt-Ons, Supercharged, etc etc etc


Like I said, the two known users who've tried the SSP stuff have been lift with the bills for two brand new, replacement DCTs