E85 M3 Advanced Fuel Dynamics

[europower]

Ordered, install seems straightforward. I'll be posting updates with install, dyno...

[pbonsalb]

There are probably half a dozen flex fuel conversion kits on the market, some for $400-$500. Do before and after dynos of yours. Maybe someone will try another and test it as well. I would try one, but the nearest E85 is 75 miles away so an E85 blend is not a practical option for me.

Here is a good article on flex fuel. GM apparently found running full E85 to be worth about 3% in power. Other sources say up to 5%, with no tuning changes. So even with a pump gas E85 blend that works out to E50, you should still pick up a little power. This is due mainly to the cooling effect of the greater fuel quantity needed when running E85 or a significant blend.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...economy-page-7

[Ryan@afd-usa.com]

Factory systems like on GM's are set up terribly from the factory and many actually reduce power in the tune intentionally. This can be changed in the tune and added in on vets and Camaro's ect we have done a lot with these systems as well. The article you mention is a pretty poor article when it comes to actual performance, you can find plenty of articles of people bashing ethanol but you can find even more cars making serious power with it. Millage does vary but these cars have to run Premium so running E85 wont cost you any more and you do make more power there is really nothing to be lost here dollar wise on fuel.

I'd steer clear of any universal "kit" I really dont want to be lumped in with that garbage.

This is full and true flexfuel specifically for these cars. We have plenty of dyno's and track time. Here is a dyno from last night. I showed up at EuroCharged ATX with what I thought was just 93 pump but turns out I still had 22% ethanol, ran the car 3 times and made 360 whp, a little low for my car I thought but thats what the dyno said. Added 10 gallons of Valero pump E85 that tested at E68 that brought my car up to 66% Ethanol (tested at the sensor in the line) and did another 3 pulls. Car picked up 15whp, all of this was done over about 30 min and the only variable was another 44% ethanol. This is what we see over an over again and the guys at EuroCharged ATX are a stocking dealer for us and are happy to answer any questions and no BS dyno data.

[IMG]M3 Dyno by Ryan Truax, on Flickr[/IMG]

[Maypo]

Is there an instrument that can be installed to read ethanol % in real time -- like right after fueling-up?

[TT_SM3RF]

Originally Posted by Ryan@afd-usa.com

Hi everyone, hopefully the below FAQ will answer most of the questions that have been raised here already.

Q: What are the WHP gains on a stock motor or a stock motor with a tune?

A: While gains will vary from car to car, 10 to 15 whp would be expected no matter what the tune in the car is. Gains will be much larger for forced induction applications.

Q: Will I run lower IAT's with ethanol? What are the cooling effects of ethanol, specifically compared to Meth Injection?

A: Yes, due to the burn chemistry of ethanol you will run lower IAT's with ethanol. Ethanol will cool better than Meth Injection. Think of Meth Injection like those nice misters outside on a hot day. Running the car on ethanol is like getting sprayed with a fire hose.

Q: On a supercharged or stock application, how is the power gained if there is no manipulation with timing?

A: This question arises due to a lack of understanding about ethanol as well as a lot of confusion about octane. To simplify the answer octane is a very small part of the equation: it adds stability to the fuel. Ethanol cools not only your intake charge but the entire engine down range of the injector. Ethanol uses more fuel and a lot of the reason it does this is because it has a higher oxygen content than gasoline. Ethanol also has a higher thermal expansion rate than gasoline at the same volume and to maintain proper AFR you need to use more, which just increases this cooling benefit to your engine. This answer could be pages long, but to sum it up, most of the power to be made is in the fuel not in the timing. Most people who would debate this have no data to back up their claims. The internet and many tuners will tell you to switch to ethanol and crank up the timing, but it's not necessary and we have 100s of independent dynos to prove it.

Q: There are numerous claims that the stock injectors and pump are maxed out already with a supercharger. Is there proof that at least a 50-50 ratio can be run, in the real world, without endangering the motor due to the loss of fuel pressure? There are claims where people have "run out of fuel" only in higher gears (not on dyno), even without E85.

A: We always welcome more data, but the reality is supercharged cars cannot run full E85 without upgrading the fuel system further. On these cars if you lose fuel pressure the car goes into limp mode. We have customers who regularly go racing "down in Mexico" and have not had any issues with long pulls and fuel pressure. On the dyno, doing 5th gear pulls the lowest pressure we have seen was 95psi. This was with a VF 650 kit on a very low mileage car. Other supercharged cars have no reported issues, but until a fuel pump upgrade is available we advise data logging to find your vehicle's limits. We have been in contact with more than one supercharger company about this and are hoping to be able to offer a solution soon.

Q: Are there safety measures in place that prevent knock, or pull timing as needed?

A: Yes it's called the DME. We recommend using a good pump gas tune with our system. If you are using a good tune you will never encounter knock when running an ethanol blend. Ethanol will stop making power before it will knock. If you are knocking with ethanol you are doing something really wrong!

Q: What are the safety features if the fuel pump cannot keep up with the fuel demand?

A: DME goes to limp mode.

Q: Is there a fuel pump upgrade available?

A: This is in development. We hope to have an update for everyone soon.

Q: There has been some confusion on the forum, does the boost increase, and if so how?

A: Our system doesn't do anything to change boost.

Q: Does the system control air/fuel and/or timing?

A: The PROFLEX Commander system controls fuel. DME controls timing.

Q: Is ethanol safe on the fuel lines, gaskets, and seals?

A: All modern vehicles are ethanol compliant and these cars don't use a problematic high pressure fuel pump like the N54.

Q: Are the sensors that are presumably attached to the injectors able to determine the amount of ethanol?

A: The system includes a fuel content sensor, a wiring harness, and a PROFLEX Commander. Our system reads ethanol in real time and reads each cylinder individually, calibrating the correct amount of fuel needed each time the injector is fired based on the data it sees from the DME. This is why the tune doesn't matter because it reads what the tune is outputting.

Q: Are there any tuners that support the product yet?

A: Yes, Eurocharged ATX has been a big help to us in developing our AMG systems and are working with us toward more euro applications including E46 M3 and E60 M5 & M6. We have many other smaller tuners using our systems on other platforms as well. Our systems have been back and forth across the county, regularly around and down race tracks, and had more dyno time than we can remember. Ignite Racing Fuel has been part of our R&D program and we are happy to set anyone up with them as a fuel supplier. Also, Dan Schwartzkopf is our technical adviser and he has been racing with ethanol since 1992 and is the one responsible for bringing ethanol to NHRA, IndyCar, and more. Together our team has more combined experience with ethanol that anyone else we've come across.

Thanks Ryan for providing an Q&A for everyone to read and understand on how the ProFlex Commander works.

[TT_SM3RF]

Originally Posted by europower

Ordered, install seems straightforward. I'll be posting updates with install, dyno...

Hey man....glad you ordered your ProFlex Commander.
Sorry I don't have any illustrations but the install is pretty straight forward.

You have already spoken to Ryan and I'm sure he answered alot of your questions. We've already exchanged some messages here on M3post but if you have any additional questions let me know.

Good Luck!

[E90_M3_Dubai]

Fellas , Ive been running on E85 for almost 5months now thanks to Gintani's E85 conversion kit , I previously had the stg2+ with the V3 blower on 98US then upgraded to V2Ti blower with E85 kit as im having a Low Compression motor being built by PPM - Australia and I will be needing more boost .
Currently still running on stock motor with the ethanol , results below :


Car setup :

6MT
Gintani Stage 2+ with upgraded Blower ( V2ti Vortech)
ARH catless headers
Syvecs S6 plus PnP ECU
Meth/water mix
Upgraded E85 fuel pumps and injectors (Gintani Setup)


Dyno used : Dyno Dynamics / Mainline Hub Dyno - Both read around 30~40 whp roughly less than a Dynojet


When the car had the Stock ECU tune on E85 , we got 580whp on Mainline hub dyno , after the syvecs we ran the car on E50 (50%Ethanol/50% pump gas -93 US i believe ) and we got 648whp/435ft.Lb

and that was @ 7750rpms as the car was going lean after that (needs better fuel pumps )




video

check my IG for more info @ghassasino

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Ryan@afd-usa.com

Q: There are numerous claims that the stock injectors and pump are maxed out already with a supercharger. Is there proof that at least a 50-50 ratio can be run, in the real world, without endangering the motor due to the loss of fuel pressure? There are claims where people have "run out of fuel" only in higher gears (not on dyno), even without E85.

A: We always welcome more data, but the reality is supercharged cars cannot run full E85 without upgrading the fuel system further. On these cars if you lose fuel pressure the car goes into limp mode. We have customers who regularly go racing "down in Mexico" and have not had any issues with long pulls and fuel pressure. On the dyno, doing 5th gear pulls the lowest pressure we have seen was 95psi. This was with a VF 650 kit on a very low mileage car. Other supercharged cars have no reported issues, but until a fuel pump upgrade is available we advise data logging to find your vehicle's limits. We have been in contact with more than one supercharger company about this and are hoping to be able to offer a solution soon.

Q: What are the safety features if the fuel pump cannot keep up with the fuel demand?

A: DME goes to limp mode.

This hasn't been our experience. At the Texas Mile with PG's car, the engine kept stuttering after about 150 MPH. We thought it was the fuel, we thought it was the o2 sensors. That's what we thought until about a year later when Drew (DLSJ5) was having the same problem with his VT3. Drew called PG to go out with him to data log the car. Drew was experiencing the same stuttering on his 60-130 runs as we did at the Texas Mile. Neither car ever went into limp mode. That's when he discovered the fuel pressure issue. PG analyzed the logs and saw the fuel pressure dipping below 3-bar when the stuttering occurred. But no limp mode from the DME on either car. It may have been turned off, but I can't say because we're not tuners.

[Ryan@afd-usa.com]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

This hasn't been our experience. At the Texas Mile with PG's car, the engine kept stuttering after about 150 MPH. We thought it was the fuel, we thought it was the o2 sensors. That's what we thought until about a year later when Drew (DLSJ5) was having the same problem with his VT3. Drew called PG to go out with him to data log the car. Drew was experiencing the same stuttering on his 60-130 runs as we did at the Texas Mile. Neither car ever went into limp mode. That's when he discovered the fuel pressure issue. PG analyzed the logs and saw the fuel pressure dipping below 3-bar when the stuttering occurred. But no limp mode from the DME on either car. It may have been turned off, but I can't say because we're not tuners.

The important thing here is if you have a blower fuel pumps are probably something you need to think about. Our system doesn't include a fuel pump set up at this time so if your system cant keep up it cant keep up. The pump set up on these M3's is not as simple as most so I cant just tell you to throw 2 450's in the stock bucket and call it good, also we have seen on our AMG applications that the fuel lines are too small over 600whp and they use the same size fuel line so just upgrading to a dual pump is not a good option. I have been talking with Alex at Gintani about the fuel pump setups they have used but haven't gotten a solid answer on if they are producing them as an off the shelf part yet. Once this is sorted out it is something that we will offer for supercharged cars but is obviously not necessary on N/A cars.

[europower]

Originally Posted by Maypo

Is there an instrument that can be installed to read ethanol % in real time -- like right after fueling-up?

There are lots on the market. There's bluetooth ones etc. Hopefully Ryan can suggest one that would work with this kit?

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Weyne Masters

Know we are add a New Walbro 450 in parallel,and as soon as the fuel pressure goes up to 450 the new Fuel pump will start and keep the rails pressure!
So I believe the both sistem will be able to handler high Boost and E-85

Weyne, you paying attention?

Originally Posted by Ryan@afd-usa.com

The important thing here is if you have a blower fuel pumps are probably something you need to think about. Our system doesn't include a fuel pump set up at this time so if your system cant keep up it cant keep up. The pump set up on these M3's is not as simple as most so I cant just tell you to throw 2 450's in the stock bucket and call it good, also we have seen on our AMG applications that the fuel lines are too small over 600whp and they use the same size fuel line so just upgrading to a dual pump is not a good option. I have been talking with Alex at Gintani about the fuel pump setups they have used but haven't gotten a solid answer on if they are producing them as an off the shelf part yet. Once this is sorted out it is something that we will offer for supercharged cars but is obviously not necessary on N/A cars.

[L4ces]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Weyne, you paying attention?

Good looking out.

[Tunerjones]

Can anyone else comment and say they have gotten this kit? Seems almost like a lot of trouble (and money $1200) just to raise some octane levels a bit.

[Weyne Masters]

Go to syvecs

[M.Hagen]

My $0.02 is that this is a waste of money if you aren't gaining timing overhead.

The stock DME already has the capability of altering fuel trims to allow for ethanol blends. On stock trim limits, an E35-E40 blend is what most users can get before a fault is triggered (reference the Ethanol thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1011930)

For users with aftermarket tunes, the tuner can change the trim limit to allow for even greater ethanol blends, completely negating the need for this device.

The closed-loop lambda control is very fast on the MSS60, and there are no ill-effects other triggering a fault when the trim limit is reached. In which case, add a couple gallons of standard pump gas back into the tank.

On my setup (Harrop SC) I picked up an additional 24whp / 18wtq by blending up to E40. Same day same dyno. No resetting of timing adaptations. Logs showed a difference of ~.3 degrees of timing at peak torque (in favor of the pump gas), so I wasn't gaining that power from added advance, simply from the fuel makup.

[Tunerjones]

Originally Posted by M.Hagen

My $0.02 is that this is a waste of money if you aren't gaining timing overhead.

The stock DME already has the capability of altering fuel trims to allow for ethanol blends. On stock trim limits, an E35-E40 blend is what most users can get before a fault is triggered (reference the Ethanol thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1011930)

For users with aftermarket tunes, the tuner can change the trim limit to allow for even greater ethanol blends, completely negating the need for this device.

The closed-loop lambda control is very fast on the MSS60, and there are no ill-effects other triggering a fault when the trim limit is reached. In which case, add a couple gallons of standard pump gas back into the tank.

On my setup (Harrop SC) I picked up an additional 24whp / 18wtq by blending up to E40. Same day same dyno. No resetting of timing adaptations. Logs showed a difference of ~.3 degrees of timing at peak torque (in favor of the pump gas), so I wasn't gaining that power from added advance, simply from the fuel makup.

So you just added some e85 to your 93 and the car corrected on its own? Basically like using an octane booster?

[Tunerjones]

Originally Posted by Weyne Masters

Go to syvecs

A stand a long engine management can definitely accomplish this. Would love for someone to piece together a kit and easy upgrade options.

[M.Hagen]

Originally Posted by Tunerjones

So you just added some e85 to your 93 and the car corrected on its own? Basically like using an octane booster?

Correct.

The closed loop lambda control is blind to the fuel type in the car. It only knows to target lambda values based on the targets table. Fortunately for us wanting ethanol blends, lambda value for best-power is almost the same as standard gasoline.

The DME will throw a fault if too much trim correction is required to reach target lambda. That is when you know you've reached your blend limit

[Tunerjones]

Originally Posted by M.Hagen

Correct.

The closed loop lambda control is blind to the fuel type in the car. It only knows to target lambda values based on the targets table. Fortunately for us wanting ethanol blends, lambda value for best-power is almost the same as standard gasoline.

The DME will throw a fault if too much trim correction is required to reach target lambda. That is when you know you've reached your blend limit

Messaging you.

[europower]

Originally Posted by Tunerjones

Can anyone else comment and say they have gotten this kit? Seems almost like a lot of trouble (and money $1200) just to raise some octane levels a bit.

Octane, cooling effect from e85, extra power especially when supercharged... I really don't see what's not to like! If you have e85 near you can tune for it and make even more power... hopefully an upgraded fuel pump comes out soon and we'll be able to run straight e85..

From my research its a lot of a better alternative than meth injection.. so many high hp motors use e85, I'm shocked it's not researched more on this platform. Anyway, I bought it, and will be the one testing it out next...

[Tunerjones]

Can someone from Advanced Fuel Dynamics comment and explain why I should spend the $1200 on their product rather than mixing E85 myself and monitoring my AFR not too go to lean myself?

[Tunerjones]

Originally Posted by europower

Octane, cooling effect from e85, extra power especially when supercharged... I really don't see what's not to like! If you have e85 near you can tune for it and make even more power... hopefully an upgraded fuel pump comes out soon and we'll be able to run straight e85..

From my research its a lot of a better alternative than meth injection.. so many high hp motors use e85, I'm shocked it's not researched more on this platform. Anyway, I bought it, and will be the one testing it out next...

I agree with all of. I do wish it was researched more on this platform. I feel as if the 335i's got all the attention for it and just as it might have started to begin for us, they came out with the new M3/M4 and just carried on the 335i platform with that.