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      06-22-2007, 06:13 AM   #353
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You can repent with your last breathe, but God knows the real intent of your heart. Asking is NOT enough, you must be sorry for your sins, and then God will judge you based on that.

Yes, this is true. It is a muslim belief. Everything rests upon the intention of our heart. However, like you say, God knows our real intentions. So why did Jesus have to die for anything? What was the reason if God can see into people’s hearts and see who is being sincere when they repent?
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      06-22-2007, 06:14 AM   #354
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Excellent point, however it's slightly different in Islam. Let me give 2 different stories about this point...

Mash’Allah. Nice stories. I knew about the 2nd one, but I did not hear of the 1st one about Pharaoh.

Bottom line: only God knows what's in someone's heart and He will judge them based on that.

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      06-22-2007, 09:07 AM   #355
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[b]
Firstly, I didn’t say Burka’s are compulsory. Many women feel secure by wearing them. But there is no requirement to wear them. The only requirement of women is that they cover their shape with loose clothing and that they do not reveal any of their beauty.
There used to be a time, even in western culture, when a woman who did not dress all "slutty" was considered classy. Now a days , it seems like the more a woman shows of herself - the better she is. This perception is amplified by media/pop culture. A woman that dresses provactively is giving other men the idea of sex - and those men are not her husband. So - is sex outside of marriage a good thing? The obvious answer here is no.. so then what is the good in a woman (or man) dressing to show off themselves.

Also - I just got married.. currently my wife dosn't wear a Burka.. she dosn't wear a head scarf yet. We are working together on our belief and spirituality so that one day.. not by FORCE, but by the belief in her own heart she will cover her hair and wear some looser clothing. But no Burka.. thats too much.
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      06-22-2007, 11:59 AM   #356
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Nice post. I agree with everything you said. You are a good example to many muslims and unbelievers. You show that the wife's modesty and covering is a mutual agreement between both the husband and wife - there is no violence. We muslims are not animals like some people make us out to be...
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      06-22-2007, 01:27 PM   #357
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Pharoah beleived that God protected Moses, but that is not the same thing as having faith in God and accepting Him as Lord. And he never repented for having persecuted ALL those slaves in the pursuit of his false idol (himself). Question though, who was it that saw/heard Pharoah make that statement, and yet survived the waters? THAT is a great example of the "literary license" taken over the years in the writing of the Bible. It's not much different than you telling me that lightning will kill me, and I see tress hit and burned, I see sand melted, I see houses catch on fire, and yet I still go out in a storm. Then just as I feel all the hair on my body tingling and see the bolt coming, I think "I beleive in lightning's power" It still won't save me to come to this realization at the last moment.
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      06-22-2007, 01:33 PM   #358
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Why did Jesus have to die? I asked a theologian that very question last night, and he says it's another of the mysteries we don't understand. Kind of a cop-out, I admit. The best he could explain was that to remove sin from ALL mankind required a divine sacrifice. And that item of sin that ALL mankind shares is the original sin of Adam and Eve, their difiance of the direction of God.

I *THINK* I read that after Jesus returns and sets up the millenial kingdom, we will be returned to a Garden of Eden for 1000 years. In that period, those who still retain human bodies that were not raptured will continue to procreate, and at that time the pain of childbirth will be removed.
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      06-22-2007, 01:45 PM   #359
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Not the more she shows, the better she is. Just the more she gets attention. Do you REALLY think Paris Hilton is any better?

Sluts dress like sluts. Classy women can still be beautiful. A straight, ankle length black sequined dress, halter top, with an accompanying scarf across the shoulder, and a slit in the dress to the knee. I can picture my wife in this as a lovely creature, as well as many "fashion models" who retain their classy status. And not because I wish to lavish my sexual passion all over them, but because it accents and highlights their gift of beauty.

Bad, what if your wife never comes to that realization? Will you resort to beating, or leave her? Do you love her for what's in her heart or what's on her head? Would the fact that she has borne your children make any difference in your decision?
When you say "not by FORCE", you mean not physical force. But the constant pressure of you beleiving she should do it can be far more forceful than phsysical beatings. And I in no way am implying you WOULD do this, just asking a hypothetical question


Just for the record, in the "real" world I go by Aaron.
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      06-22-2007, 01:47 PM   #360
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HKS,

From at least ONE Christian, I do not see "you Muslims" as animals. On th contrary, you are my brother, walking the same journey with the same hopes and dreams, just using a slightly different GPS unit to get there
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      06-22-2007, 02:14 PM   #361
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Why did Jesus have to die? I asked a theologian that very question last night, and he says it's another of the mysteries we don't understand. Kind of a cop-out, I admit. The best he could explain was that to remove sin from ALL mankind required a divine sacrifice. And that item of sin that ALL mankind shares is the original sin of Adam and Eve, their difiance of the direction of God.

Well then by saying that we have another problem. Sin hasn’t been removed from mankind. People are still sinning.

Another point is that God knows everything. Since he knows everything, he knew that Adam was going to sin. Why would God have to let his own son die for Adam’s sin to be forgiven even though God created Adam knowing he was going to sin?

Let’s not also forget God is all-powerful. He does not need anyone to die, not even his own son, for people to be forgiven.
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      06-22-2007, 02:15 PM   #362
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And not because I wish to lavish my sexual passion all over them, but because it accents and highlights their gift of beauty.

But is physical beauty to be admired? You believe in God, so I hope you can see what I mean when I say bad things happen in societies where physical beauty is admired. It’s the same with material possessions. We should not get hooked and depend on them. This life is not forever. Anyway, why admire physical beauty when it can lead to no good? Why not admire GOD for creating physical beauty that has been created to enjoy in a lawful manner – marriage.
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      06-22-2007, 02:15 PM   #363
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HKS,

From at least ONE Christian, I do not see "you Muslims" as animals. On th contrary, you are my brother, walking the same journey with the same hopes and dreams, just using a slightly different GPS unit to get there


That’s a good way to think of it. I mean, if noone is going to accept Islam. It does not mean that it should be abused. I don’t think we can think of this world as very advanced. We may be advanced enough to build the best of technology, but if we cannot have tolerance and respect in society – we are nothing.
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      06-22-2007, 02:34 PM   #364
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I hope that one day my HUMANITY will surpass my technology.

Sin was not removed by Jesus' death, but it's power over our souls was. He sacrificed himself to gain the keys to heaven and be able to let us in. Yes, God is all-powerful, and knows me from before the time I was in the womb, but don't start us on the whole God knows everything time/space continum debate again
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      06-22-2007, 02:36 PM   #365
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Do you worship Allah's creation of the world by marveling at the simple beauty of a rose? Or a sunset? Or the smile on a baby's face as it tugs on your beard? Can I then not worship God's power to animate a beautiful women, endowed with the enviable power to bring about life in her own body? And without it being a physical attraction that is going to lead me to sexual abuse? No, that's why we humans invented the internet
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      06-22-2007, 02:39 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
But is physical beauty to be admired? You believe in God, so I hope you can see what I mean when I say bad things happen in societies where physical beauty is admired. It’s the same with material possessions. We should not get hooked and depend on them. This life is not forever. Anyway, why admire physical beauty when it can lead to no good? Why not admire GOD for creating physical beauty that has been created to enjoy in a lawful manner – marriage.
Physical beauty is to be admired -- what's the point of the beauty otherwise? In the words of Larry Flynt: if you believe that God created a woman do you also believe that he created her vagina too? Or is it all about the divine game of provocation and testing the strenght of your spirit? Don't try to find secret meaning where there is none. Things are what they are. A beautiful woman is created for admiration of her body and civilized people can do that without raping her or offering her sex.

Your last sentence really leaves me puzzled. Under the same rationale, I should not drive by bimmer, but cover it up in the garage and spend my days in constant thanking of BMW Gmbh for creating the car so beautiful and mechanically perfect that I am not allowed to physically enjoy it for fear of getting into an accident.

And here is a major point: everything in life ultimately leads to no good. Birth leads to death, health ends with diseases, beautiful women get old and ugly. It's what is in between that matters. HERE and NOW. Not in your head, not in some books. Live YOUR life, not the life that was allegedly written for you by dead people who you never knew. Don't be a puppet of morbid and weak minds. You're are alone in your universe. Learn to accept that, embrace that, and enjoy it. Amen.
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      06-22-2007, 02:43 PM   #367
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HKS and Badmaash:

Do yourself a favor. Go to the library and borrow a book called Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_(novel)

Read it with open an mind and be conscious of your own religious seekings and beliefs while reading it. Trust me, it's an eye opener.
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      06-22-2007, 02:52 PM   #368
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I hope that one day my HUMANITY will surpass my technology.

Sin was not removed by Jesus' death, but it's power over our souls was. He sacrificed himself to gain the keys to heaven and be able to let us in. Yes, God is all-powerful, and knows me from before the time I was in the womb, but don't start us on the whole God knows everything time/space continum debate again


But if sin has no power over our souls, people would not sin. However, people still sin today. If Jesus sacrificed himself to get the keys to heaven this make’s me question if he is God. If he is God or even God’s son, wouldn’t he already have the keys?
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      06-22-2007, 02:52 PM   #369
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Do you worship Allah's creation of the world by marveling at the simple beauty of a rose? Or a sunset? Or the smile on a baby's face as it tugs on your beard? Can I then not worship God's power to animate a beautiful women, endowed with the enviable power to bring about life in her own body? And without it being a physical attraction that is going to lead me to sexual abuse? No, that's why we humans invented the internet

Oh yes. We can admire a women’s beauty, but only in marriage.
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      06-22-2007, 02:53 PM   #370
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Things are what they are. A beautiful woman is created for admiration of her body and civilized people can do that without raping her or offering her sex.

You fail to understand what muslims beliefs are. A woman covering her body is not only to stop rape/sex. It is because we muslims think that only the beauty of husbands/wives should be enjoyed in marriage.

And here is a major point: everything in life ultimately leads to no good. Birth leads to death, health ends with diseases, beautiful women get old and ugly.

Firstly, birth ends to death, but there is life after death. The type of life you choose after death depends on how you live this old. And since when did women get old and ugly? Like I said – who made you the world policeman of what is beautiful and not. When you grow old with your wife, you will see her just as beautiful as you did the day you married her. That my friend is love and beauty.

You're are alone in your universe. Learn to accept that, embrace that, and enjoy it. Amen.

If you think a population of 1.2b Muslims makes me “alone” I worry for you.
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      06-22-2007, 03:02 PM   #371
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Bad, what if your wife never comes to that realization? Will you resort to beating, or leave her? Do you love her for what's in her heart or what's on her head? Would the fact that she has borne your children make any difference in your decision?
When you say "not by FORCE", you mean not physical force. But the constant pressure of you beleiving she should do it can be far more forceful than phsysical beatings. And I in no way am implying you WOULD do this, just asking a hypothetical question
Never ever would I resort to beating.. its against my religion. Our marriage didn't come with any conditions either.. so its not like I said that if by 2025 if there is no scarf, I am gone. Her decision to cover is between her and God, she needs to sort it out. I can just try to show her - and be a good example to her. If I am a crappy, oppressive husband, in the name of my religion.. ofcourse she will end up hating my religion. She knows it really has nothing to do with me - the only pressure she has is from God. The important thing for us is that she is a believer.. so she does understand the principle behind it.

She herself knows the benefit and wants to do it one day - she just knows that currently she is not strong enough. It is very hard for a woman to be strong and go cover herself in this society, thats also why there is no pushing on my end.. because people stare, call names, disrespect women that cover themselves..and I honestly dont know how I would react to all that.. So I cant be a hypocrite and pressure her into it. Also before we got married she knows that I know how much she loved fashion.. so its hard to let that stuff go.
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      06-22-2007, 03:05 PM   #372
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1. Selfish, hypocritical, and based on a desire to "own" another human being. Also, can you see the difference between love and jealosy?

2. A 20-year old woman is objectively much more beautiful than the same woman 50 years after.

3. You are ALONE in YOUR universe. But, if you are constantly trying to run away from your SELF, you will get a false perception that you are not through drugs, religion, meditation, sports, ect. Your universe lives around you and changes with you constantly. It changes when you drink coffee, it changes when you are sick and in pain, it changes when you are travelling, etc. You are suffering alone and experiencing pleasure alone. The problem with you is that you don't accept your SELF, you think that you are an image created by others. Think about my words seriously at night before falling asleep. Who are you? A combination of religious writings or just YOU who you have never really met before?
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      06-22-2007, 03:11 PM   #373
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Selfish, hypocritical, and based on a desire to "own" another human being. Also, can you see the difference between love and jealosy?

Not really since both rules apply to men and women.

A 20-year old woman is objectively much more beautiful than the same woman 50 years after.

Beautiful in what way? I would say the 50 year old could be more mature and have a more beautiful heart. Anyway, even physical looks. Ask the 50 year old's husband. He'll see her more beautiful than ANY other women regardless of age. I pray you'll understand this some day.

The problem with you is that you don't accept your SELF, you think that you are an image created by others.

No thats your problem with me. I am no image of anything...

Who are you? A combination of religious writings or just YOU who you have never really met before?

I know who I am. I am the son of Adam (AS) and I'll be judged by the same God as you...
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      06-22-2007, 03:18 PM   #374
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Quote:
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1. Selfish, hypocritical, and based on a desire to "own" another human being. Also, can you see the difference between love and jealosy?
And yet all these Muslim females in the world engage in it willingly. Surely some woman, from 1400+ years ago to today, must have had free will and was neither forced into or brainwashed into following the order prescribed by Islam w/o feeling that she is "owned."

ATG, are you saying that the structure of marriages are formed on jealousy? We're perceived as jealous because our wives dress a certain way? Again see the above paragraph.

Please clarify if I misunderstood.
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