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09-08-2007, 11:58 PM | #23 | |
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The S65 torque curve falls off fairly quickly at the high rpms. This only conclusion you can draw is the engine makes less torque at 8,300 than 7,800. Unlike the S85 (V10), the torque gets peakier with at high revs versus the S65's flatter torque curve (with faster drop off) The S65 will be more "driveable" than the S85 but the S65 will be capable of deliver more power once a tuner provides a camshaft + ECU tuning to give more torque in the high rpms. BTW, I think the M3's drivetrain is "less efficient" because it is driving bigger engine accessories (like a bigger waterpump) than the 335i
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09-09-2007, 12:17 AM | #24 | |
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Accesssories and BER
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If the tests from the manufacturer somehow did not include the effects of accessories the M3 would make up ground in losses comapared to the 335i by BER. |
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09-09-2007, 01:00 AM | #25 | |
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Cont.
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Even though this is not a physics class there is no escaping the physics. Physics describes our world - very accurately and your physics is still incorrect. There is no concept of "weight perpedicular to a plane". Weight is always mass x gravity which can have a direction if you consider gravity to be a vector bu then we typically call this a force, not a weight. Next torque or power losses take two forms - inertial and frictional. Inertial losses are just those that arise from the mass and rotational inertia of drive train components. The "loss" here is because it takes more energy to spin up a heavy shaft than a light shaft. Frictional losses are fairly obvious the friction turns energy to heat irreversibly. Your forumula accounts only for frictional losses not intertial. I don't know what industry you are in and where you use your formulae but if you are designing rotating equipment I don't want to be anywhere near that equipment. Care to try again ? |
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09-09-2007, 01:02 AM | #26 | |
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SAE Net HP does this but the N54 engine declutches and disengages some of the accessories, so I am not sure if SAE HP is calculated with the accessories attached (but not working) or if it is measured with the accessories attached and working. Does it take more HP to drive a LSD?
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09-09-2007, 01:29 AM | #27 | |
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Aren't you a Canadian fellow? Have you seen the beast in person yet - plans to? Congrats on the 1k post mark (a bit late...). |
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09-09-2007, 04:34 AM | #28 | |
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hilarious.
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09-09-2007, 07:57 AM | #29 | |||
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Torque losses= side force * coefficient of friction*radius of the rotating mass Side force as I had mentioned earlier barring other forces is entirely due to weight acting perpendicular to the plane. Quote:
Care to take the time to read carefully, and perhaps do a little bit of thinking as well? Last edited by chonko; 09-09-2007 at 06:43 PM.. |
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09-10-2007, 12:12 AM | #30 | |
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The weight of the each car is listed at M3: 1611 KG = 3552 lbs 335i: 1621 KG = 3574 lbs (correct for 335i) RS4: 1728 KG = 3810 lbs (about right for a Euro model - more in US) M5: 1844 KG = 4065 lbs (about right for M5 with a couple options Since the 335i has been weighed by multiple car mags right about 3575 lbs, I think the listed weight for the M3 might just be accurate. I think this is good news for those of us who thought the M3 was coming in well into the 3600s. They have managed to keep weight about 100 lbs more than the E46 M3! Combine this with a lot more HP to the wheels than the RS4 and you have yourself a very quick car.
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09-10-2007, 08:44 AM | #31 | |
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09-10-2007, 01:03 PM | #33 |
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E92 Dyno results
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09-10-2007, 06:48 PM | #34 | |
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You beat me
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09-10-2007, 07:10 PM | #35 |
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09-11-2007, 12:28 PM | #36 | |
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Both wrong
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We were both wrong here. Your initial formulae were totally wrong but my comments about inertial losses were incorrect as well, that was sloppy thinking about the physics. I hope to post some more useful formulae soon that shows the difference - but here is the crux: Torqe losses are indeed mostly frictional. Larger drivetrain mass is not an inertial loss but simply an impedement to acceleration - they DO NOT lower the actual torque applied to the wheels. It is just like the simple F=ma for linear motion, a lossy process lowers the force which lowers the acceleration. Just as well a larger mass lowers the acceleration for a given force. Same things applies to T=I*alpha where T=torque, I=moment of inertia (say of all drive train components) and alpha is angular acceleration. On the weight thing, yes weight is a vector and a force, however, most folks refer to weight as a scalar quantity (no direction). Again, my apologies for the sarcasm and my sloppy thinking. Again when I can find a few minutes I will post some useful formulae. |
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09-11-2007, 12:29 PM | #37 |
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Measurement
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09-11-2007, 01:50 PM | #38 |
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09-11-2007, 01:50 PM | #39 |
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But I think it says curb weight. Means without driver but full tank, subtract 10% fuel, add 75 kg and the result is the real weight compared to the maufacturer claim of 1655kg.
335i was with AT... Best regards, south |
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09-11-2007, 02:03 PM | #40 |
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The only thing that makes sense to me is curb weight. The rest is just regulatory nonsense that seems to confuse people more than anything else. Two basic questions I want to be able to answer are: what is the weight difference between the E46 M3 and the E92 M3; what is the weight difference between the 335i and the E92 M3? Since these are relative differences, it doesn't matter what measurement scheme is being used as long as the same damn scheme is used consistently.
So, does someone know the curb weight for the 335i without AT then? (as independently measured and not stated although South's calculation seems to show that in this measurement, they agree.) And, can we all agree that the curb weight of the manual E46 M3 is 3415lbs? [Edmunds.com] That would mean the E92 M3 is 137lbs heavier than the E92 M3 according to the reported measurement on this thread... |
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09-11-2007, 04:04 PM | #41 |
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As I stated in my post above, BMWUSA says 3,571 with MT, 3,582 with AT. Not exactly an independent measurement, I guess.
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09-11-2007, 04:11 PM | #42 | |
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Just trying to share knowledge thats all. |
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09-11-2007, 04:20 PM | #43 |
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09-11-2007, 09:05 PM | #44 |
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A and O
Well if that ain't apples to oranges I don't know what it (even if it is close to correct for an apples to apples comparo). If we don't have an actual measurement for a MT 335i I say the best estimate is measured weight with AT - (BMW official weight difference between MT and AT). This gives 3574-11=3563, making the measured M3 MT 11 lbs lighter than 335i MT. Close enough to call it a wash.
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