E90 or E46 M3?

[mdosu]

if money is not an impediment, you'll be an idiot for picking the E46 over the E9X M3. The E9X M3 is just leaps and bounds better than the E46 in every measurable relavant category.

b/c the E46 vs E9X is the debate, I take it money is the major consideration.

[zamboni]

If budget allows go with the last NA V8.

[M3vertguy]

Originally Posted by zamboni

If budget allows go with the last NA V8.

Agreed. This is the dilemma facing a lot of current E46 M3 owners. I recently found a buyer for my E46 M3 and am actively searching for an E92/E92. This forum is a great resource of information.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by mdosu

if money is not an impediment, you'll be an idiot for picking the E46 over the E9X M3. The E9X M3 is just leaps and bounds better than the E46 in every measurable relavant category.

b/c the E46 vs E9X is the debate, I take it money is the major consideration.

Ways the e46 is better:
Weight
Fun to drive
Feel
Mpg
Exterior looks
Interior looks

The last two may be subjective... But pretty universally agreed by everyone who doesn't own an e9X.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Ways the e46 is better:
Weight
Fun to drive - you're right, E9X is not fun at all, most E9X M3 drivers read Jane Austen novels
Feel - feel of what? It just "feels" better? Are we talking about cashmere sweaters?
Mpg - E46: 16 city 23 highway, that 2 extra highway MPGs, man it's like a prius
Exterior looks -dated
Interior looks - dated

The last two may be subjective... But pretty universally agreed by everyone who doesn't own an e9X.

if you're picking E46 M3 vs E9x M3 based on MPG factors, you're doing it wrong, you should also assess whether you can afford a sports car in general. Plus that whopping extra 2 mpgs, impressive.

Feel & fun to drive is not subjective? I don't recall that being on a spec chart, is it measured in hogsheads?

All I'm saying is, find me one E46 owner who if presented with a free E9X M3 swap would say..."you know what? thanks, but I'll stay with the E46". The E9X M3 is better in very measurable category.

Oh yeah, weight, although important, cannot be the single most important factor. Otherwise, we'll all be driving Lotus or Miatas...

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by mdosu

if you're picking E46 M3 vs E9x M3 based on MPG factors, you're doing it wrong, you should also assess whether you can afford a sports car in general. Plus that whopping extra 2 mpgs, impressive.

Feel & fun to drive is not subjective? I don't recall that being on a spec chart, is it measured in hogsheads?

All I'm saying is, find me one E46 owner who if presented with a free E9X M3 swap would say..."you know what? thanks, but I'll stay with the E46". The E9X M3 is better in very measurable category.

Oh yeah, weight, although important, cannot be the single most important factor. Otherwise, we'll all be driving Lotus or Miatas...

Find a launch review that doesn't mention how much worse the steering feel is. It's a pretty objective thing.

I don't really care about fuel economy that much, but i do like to be able to go on a highway trip without stopping every 250 miles... And the 46M gets low mid 30s driven at extra legal speeds.

I was going to get an e92 M3 until I drove one. Had a down payment on it, was allocation #1 at my dealer. Drove, didn't like it didn't get it.

I'm actually working up to getting one now as a family car... But it'll be just that-- family car/beater when I need the practicality of 4 doors.

So, I'll stay with the 46 .
With possibly an e90 that comes and goes. Or an X5 4.8is and manual swap it... Or make myself an e46 M3 station wagon. Decisions, decisions.

[Megabeast]

Originally Posted by Nang Vann

Get em both!

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Find a launch review that doesn't mention how much worse the steering feel is. It's a pretty objective thing.

I don't really care about fuel economy that much, but i do like to be able to go on a highway trip without stopping every 250 miles... And the 46M gets low mid 30s driven at extra legal speeds.

I was going to get an e92 M3 until I drove one. Had a down payment on it, was allocation #1 at my dealer. Drove, didn't like it didn't get it.

I'm actually working up to getting one now as a family car... But it'll be just that-- family car/beater when I need the practicality of 4 doors.

So, I'll stay with the 46 .
With possibly an e90 that comes and goes.

look man, to each his own opinions, especially on the functionality, and subjective categories.

I respect your views, but at the end of the day, you're not going to convince the overwhelming majority of E9X M3 owners that E46 M3s are better cars. And you're certainly not going to convince the E46 M3 owners who are thinking of jumping to the E9X. At least not on the forum.

[Obioban]

Nor am I trying to-- but it is the topic of the thread.

Btw, we get a good number that go to the e9x... And then come back.

[M3takesNYC]

I stopped reading when the guy is saying an e46 M3 gets 30's to mid 30's mpg at legal speeds.

Clearly he is delusional and can stop wasting time arguing if he is that out of touch with reality

[Transfer]

http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/m3

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

I stopped reading when the guy is saying an e46 M3 gets 30's to mid 30's mpg at legal speeds.

Clearly he is delusional and can stop wasting time arguing if he is that out of touch with reality

You're localish. I can show you next time I'm passing through NYC area if you'd like

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

I stopped reading when the guy is saying an e46 M3 gets 30's to mid 30's mpg at legal speeds.

Clearly he is delusional and can stop wasting time arguing if he is that out of touch with reality

Agreed. E46m will get marginally better mileage, prob in the 18-20 mpg range city/hwy combined.

I had a z4m and never touched the 30mpg range.

[Obioban]

To be clear, all I meant was you get low 30s while on the highway, not ever your overall average.

My overall average is obc indicated 20.1mpg, but my car rarely sees highway recently (once per month these days).

[termigni]

I had E46M and I loved it and still love it when i see one one the road.
but at this point if i were to go back to an M, i would choose a used E9xM.

i'll just list some of the pros and cons of each. ( that I think is true, pls correct me if wrong)

E46M
pros:
Timeless looks
price
IMO, No other 3 series can beat the interior of E46 line, including the F3 series.
Raw
Better MPG (not the best still better than E9xM)
Most of the issues have answers on M3forum.net
Fun to drive

Cons:
VANOS
Subframe
less technology


E9xM
Pros:
V8 power & sound
bulletproof (from what I've reserched so far)
E92 look beautiful and even has hits of exotic

Cons:
V8 MPG
"softer than older gen" (this is something we can't escape with new cars now days)
interior IMO is too boring and not exciting


as for my preference, I think I'll wait for the F8xM. I want the TQ, better MPG, better interior design than E9x, more room for my growing family and some new technology in the cabin.

[mdosu]

btw, my E90 M3 can also get 30 mpgs. I have to drive at 50 mph in 6th gear on a flat road, but again, what's the point? If I wanted mpgs, i would bought a prius.

[M3takesNYC]

Its just silly to think the e46 m3 is better in any measurable way. As it should not be just like the F80 will be better in every objective measure. Sure nostalgia may make the e46 m3 "better" in someones mind but in this thread it is a case when someone who can't have an e90 m3 and has an e46 m3, we convince ourselves what we have is better in some way and actually start to believe it. Just like the 30 mpg. Like you said maybe he saw one time going 50 on the highway he got 30mpg and now believes the car gets 30mpg in general on the highway.

I would love an e46 m3 in the stall with my e90 m3 but if you had to pick one it is really a no brainer.

The only reason I can see truly choosing an older version of a car will be when the F80 comes out given its engine is completely a different concept than traditional M3 engines with turbo and low revs. But the e90 v8 builds on the high-rev cocept and makes more power per litre, has higher revs and screams louder and screeches like crazy up high in a similar but different fashion than the e46. So if you liked the S54, there is no way you would not like the s65 better. Especially given it weighs less!

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

Its just silly to think the e46 m3 is better in any measurable way. As it should not be just like the F80 will be better in every objective measure. Sure nostalgia may make the e46 m3 "better" in someones mind but in this thread it is a case when someone who can't have an e90 m3 and has an e46 m3, we convince ourselves what we have is better in some way and actually start to believe it. Just like the 30 mpg. Like you said maybe he saw one time going 50 on the highway he got 30mpg and now believes the car gets 30mpg in general on the highway.

I would love an e46 m3 in the stall with my e90 m3 but if you had to pick one it is really a no brainer.

The only reason I can see truly choosing an older version of a car will be when the F80 comes out given its engine is completely a different concept than traditional M3 engines with turbo and low revs. But the e90 v8 builds on the high-rev cocept and makes more power per litre, has higher revs and screams louder and screeches like crazy up high in a similar but different fashion than the e46. So if you liked the S54, there is no way you would not like the s65 better. Especially given it weighs less!

I don't know why you think I "can't have" an e9X M3. You can pick them up pretty cheaply these days. Hell, a 2008 M3 is worth about what I've spent on SuperSprint products between the 46 and 39.

I actually even find the S65 to be more boring than the S54-- The s65 feel completely unstressed at 8400 rpm, so you feel like you should be able to keep going. The s54 feels like it's going to blow up past ~7500, which makes it feel much more exciting at the top end.

If you equate faster to better, then absolutely the e9X is better than the e46, and the F30 will be better than the e9X.

Since I'm not racing, I don't equate faster to better; I equate driving enjoyment to better. On that scale, IMO: e30 > e46 > e36/e90 (they tie for me) > f30.
I can't stand any of BMW's new cars. Turbos, automated gearboxes, direct injection, bla bla bla... not even a little bit tempted by the F30. The e90 is likely the last M3 that I can own.

And, next question will be why don't I have an e30 m3-- because it doesn't meet my practical needs. Parts are getting scarce, safety... isn't there, etc. Plus, my 375 NA hp e36 M3 only weights 2315 lbs, so it kind of meets my e30 needs... albeit in a completely unstreetable way.

To me, faster is only better if
a) you're racing
b) it makes it more fun

I'm not racing my street car and I find the e9X M3 more boring to drive than the e46, so... here I am.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I actually even find the S65 to be more boring than the S54-- The s65 feel completely unstressed at 8400 rpm, so you feel like you should be able to keep going. The s54 feels like it's going to blow up past ~7500, which makes it feel much more exciting at the top end.

Interesting, I shared the exact samw point of view a little while back .

[M3takesNYC]

Unstressed is not nearly synonmous with boring. It is the fun factor and the beauty of what ease it revs to 8600 RPMS and the fact you can do it all day long and not feel you are breaking the engine. The speed at which it revs is so much faster as well that you get into the useable 8k rpm range much more quickly which makes it more fun since you can jump above 8k very easily and quickly

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

Unstressed is not nearly synonmous with boring. It is the fun factor and the beauty of what ease it revs to 8600 RPMS and the fact you can do it all day long and not feel you are breaking the engine. The speed at which it revs is so much faster as well that you get into the useable 8k rpm range much more quickly which makes it more fun since you can jump above 8k very easily and quickly

8400 rpm.

Or, if you're going to talk about modded cars, the e46 revs to 8200. Mine does (for that matter, my s54's rev limiter was briefly set at 8700 rpm).

My point was, though, that it doesn't feel like anything exciting is happening when you take the s65 to 8400 rpm other than the car accelerating quickly. Doesn't feel... eventful. A good analogy is the S2000 vs the RX8. The S2000 feels amazing at 9000 rpm, in the RX8 you feel like you're shifting early and it's just getting to where it should be at 9000 rpm.

Either way, the s54 doesn't seem to suffer unduly from high rpm use. Mine has ~4000 track miles on it, all between 5500 and 8200 rpm. As well as 125,000 street miles where I bounce off the rev limiter repeatedly all day (not during the 1200 mile break in or while it's warming up).

[Obioban]

Here's a question for the "faster is better" crowd...

Would you rather have an e30 M3 or US spec e36 m3? Why?

Food for thought: The e36 M3 has more tech, accelerates faster, puts down better lap times, and it more civil.

Further food for thought: the e46 M3 is stiffer, louder, and more temperamental than the e36 M3.