Car and Driver 2012 M3 ZCP vs. 2012 C63 AMG coupe

[OdomPHD]

Super, no edit option for iPhone app.

Hint.





I meant to say that the MB is supposed to be competitive in all aspects to the BMW E92 M3. Not all aspects except weight, in which the MB weighs 400lb more. That is why it wasn't a tie. A simple yet worthless sunroof. Worthless on an AMG, anyway. Tsk tsk MB. You built this coupe with seemingly one task: nail the M3 to the wall with strait line speed via massive displacement while going from sedan => coupe. Yet you were still a quarter ton heavier....pardon me but wtf?

I predict MB shifts to carbon fiber parts like BMW soon if I were to judge.

[bavarian19]

So the new M3 needs more torque. I completely agree. It needs to be controllable, but FI seems the best way to do that while decreasing consumption.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

So the new M3 needs more torque. I completely agree. It needs to be controllable, but FI seems the best way to do that while decreasing consumption.

I never really understood this complaint.

The S65 revs up to 8400 and is VERY exciting...at least to me. You could probably loose some top end power and revs for more torque. You could beat a couple of more cars on the drag strip and stoplight races.

If that was the case...I'd just buy a 335i and wait for the next M3.

[vladberca]

Having such a great car in portofolio (M3 E9x), BMW can t do a bad job with the future F8x Ms For sustaining this afirmation we have the example of the F10 M5

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

So the new M3 needs more torque. I completely agree. It needs to be controllable, but FI seems the best way to do that while decreasing consumption.

Why does it need more torque?

Is the goal to be traction limited in 2nd gear? I'm already severely traction limited in first.

The only advantage to more torque would be less shifting, if you consider that an advantage.

Furthermore, I trust you're taking into account gearing?

[Soldier2304]

Come on Guys, Car and driver? What a coincidente probably te most biased, always favoring BMW of all. I would suggest you Guys go as test drive a C63 and see for yourselves that this shouldnt even be a comparison. Te C63 is an animal compared to the M3 and I'm not even talking about this new coupe in referring to the sedan.. A stock C63 pulls a bus length on a stock M3 and chipped it's like racing a civic. I have to agree now that I finally bought my first BMW that the balance of a Beamer is more rounded and it's not a car that was made for straight line but honestly the intoxicating torque that my Chipped C63 had was amazing + the exhaust sound... Totally different car.. So please stop reading payed magazines and test drive the car for yourselves.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Soldier2304

Come on Guys, Car and driver? What a coincidente probably te most biased, always favoring BMW of all. I would suggest you Guys go as test drive a C63 and see for yourselves that this shouldnt even be a comparison. Te C63 is an animal compared to the M3 and I'm not even talking about this new coupe in referring to the sedan.. A stock C63 pulls a bus length on a stock M3 and chipped it's like racing a civic. I have to agree now that I finally bought my first BMW that the balance of a Beamer is more rounded and it's not a car that was made for straight line but honestly the intoxicating torque that my Chipped C63 had was amazing + the exhaust sound... Totally different car.. So please stop reading payed magazines and test drive the car for yourselves.

Any time a magazine agrees with me then it is unbiased and a paragon of truth and virtue. If it disagrees with me then it is biased and just bought and sold by advertisers.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by OdomPHD

...I meant to say that the MB is supposed to be competitive in all aspects to the BMW E92 M3. Not all aspects except weight, in which the MB weighs 400lb more. That is why it wasn't a tie. A simple yet worthless sunroof. Worthless on an AMG, anyway. Tsk tsk MB. You built this coupe with seemingly one task: nail the M3 to the wall with strait line speed via massive displacement while going from sedan => coupe. Yet you were still a quarter ton heavier....pardon me but wtf?

I predict MB shifts to carbon fiber parts like BMW soon if I were to judge.

Not to pick on you in particular, but there's a sort of theme amongst many of these posts which is sort of incorrect, and that theme is that MB is trying to beat the M3 on BMW's terms.

Not true.

They're trying to make money by addressing various market segments, and pretty much the primary goal is to address those market segments with offerings that first and foremost address their constituency.

Meaning: Don't alienate the faithful.

That means, no matter the market segment, the car has to look and drive like a Mercedes, with those attributes that appeal to Mercedes drivers. In turn, much like BMW has had trouble trying to dethrone the S-class with the 7 series (because that's Mercedes' home turf), Mercedes has trouble trying to dethrone the M3 because that is BMW home turf and "driving like a Mercedes" doesn't play as well in that segment.

The C63 is a very traditional Mercedes, with those attributes that serve Mercedes drivers very well indeed.

True, I'm sure Mercedes marketeers and engineers would like to beat BMW in all segments - but only on their terms. The decision to market all C63 coupes with that planetary-sized sunroof is an example of that.

I hate it, but they're addressing their constituency first and foremost, and somebody thought that was the way to go.

Bruce

[aussiem3]

Couldn't agree more. Well said with fewer words and without the boy-racer arrogance or attitude.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Not to pick on you in particular, but there's a sort of theme amongst many of these posts which is sort of incorrect, and that theme is that MB is trying to beat the M3 on BMW's terms.

Not true.

They're trying to make money by addressing various market segments, and pretty much the primary goal is to address those market segments with offerings that first and foremost address their constituency.

Meaning: Don't alienate the faithful.

That means, no matter the market segment, the car has to look and drive like a Mercedes, with those attributes that appeal to Mercedes drivers. In turn, much like BMW has had trouble trying to dethrone the S-class with the 7 series (because that's Mercedes' home turf), Mercedes has trouble trying to dethrone the M3 because that is BMW home turf and "driving like a Mercedes" doesn't play as well in that segment.

The C63 is a very traditional Mercedes, with those attributes that serve Mercedes drivers very well indeed.

True, I'm sure Mercedes marketeers and engineers would like to beat BMW in all segments - but only on their terms. The decision to market all C63 coupes with that planetary-sized sunroof is an example of that.

I hate it, but they're addressing their constituency first and foremost, and somebody thought that was the way to go.

Bruce

AMEN! Exactly!

[gthal]

I just got back from a track event where I had the opportunity to drive the C63 coupe (amongst other cars) in a track setting. I have to say, it is an impressive car on many fronts. The car has very impressive power and VERY impressive torque. The torque is on demand everywhere and all of the time but without turbo lag as the car is NA. I have always heard the phrase "there is no replacement for displacement" and I now know why. The M3 isn't "lacking" in torque IMO and I always thought people who complained about the torque in the M3 were nuts but compared to the C63 there is a significant and meaningful difference.

What surprised me the most was how planted the car felt and how easy it was to place on the track. Grip was very strong. The car had a more pronounced oversteer but in some ways that was entertaining. A set of wider and stickier tires and the car would be a very capable track car. I did not really feel the extra weight either.

I was impressed. The car is a monster on the street and very capable on a track.

[TK-421]

I just finished driving my neighbor's C63 Coupe and long story short... it's a king on the street. If you're never going to track it, can live without a clutch pedal, and like the way it looks, I see no reason not to get the C63, especially with the Develpopment Pack. Oh and let's not get started with modding potential (he's got the full Evosport treatment on the way )

[gthal]

Originally Posted by TK-421

I just finished driving my neighbor's C63 Coupe and long story short... it's a king on the street. If you're never going to track it, can live without a clutch pedal, and like the way it looks, I see no reason not to get the C63, especially with the Develpopment Pack. Oh and let's not get started with modding potential (he's got the full Evosport treatment on the way )

Highlighted part is overstated IMO and a common misconception/bias of us M3 owners who have never driven a C63 coupe on the track... I have driven one on the track and they are very capable. 95% of the capability of the M3 on track and would be even closer with better rubber. The M3 is still a better track car on most tracks but it is a very narrow gap with the revisions on the 2012 C63 coupe and a difference most of us would not be skilled enough to experience. If the car was a track only car, then the M3 is still the choice. For a DD with 8-10 track days a year... which one is better is a toss up IMO and the decision will be made based on what you like about each car and subjective items.

[Genericuser1]

Read this yesterday and the thing that stuck in my mind is the M3 won by one point. The c63 lost 3 points due to price as tested. So basically the C63 would have won if it was less spec'd.

Two different types of cars they just are just both German with V-8.

[BMoney]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

Read this yesterday and the thing that stuck in my mind is the M3 won by one point. The c63 lost 3 points due to price as tested. So basically the C63 would have won if it was less spec'd.

Two different types of cars they just are just both German with V-8.

I noticed that too but the M3 lost points for not having any options so it's basically a toss up. The kicker was the 1 point the M3 got for rebates/extras which seems kind of ridiculous.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by BMoney

I noticed that too but the M3 lost points for not having any options so it's basically a toss up. The kicker was the 1 point the M3 got for rebates/extras which seems kind of ridiculous.

I look at it as a tie regardless of the 1 point. Each car was stronger in an area but overall were very similar on aggregate performance. Auto journalists are always biased towards the track characteristics and I do believe the M3 has a slight edge here and that is why C&D gave it the win. However, for 98% of us that see either occasional (10-12 times per year) or limited track time, the two are a toss up based on preference to specific characteristics IMO. If the car NEVER sees the track, the features and usable power of the C63 would make it a "better" DD but, again, even that is subjective.

[rooringhusky]

Appreciate taking the pics so I could see what I was missing when I was sleeping Haha joking

But honestly that was cool of you to post the pics!! Really looks amazing

[theArgiope]

Honda Accord.

lol

[Ablahad]

Baby benz lol

[Genericuser1]

If you will track the car the I think the M3 is the better option. While AMG has gotten better with steering feel, braking and so forth is still a bit like a luxury musclecar. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I went from an RX8 to an STI and while I really miss the precision handling and steering feel the daily access to much more power and torque made up for it.

It's why I'm looking at an M3 sedan soon as it has power and precision.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by OdomPHD

It's the next M3 / M4 motor I'm drooling to see. We already know that the car will be heavily invested with carbon fiber (deny it and you are a fool), so we know it will be lighter. BMW AG claims the HP race is over, but I bet after following every story on these forms since 'o9 that not only will the reincarnate M3/4 have at least 50 more HP it will also nail 0-60 in 3.7 with a turbo engine. Bash me, call me speculative, I simply do not care. I'm right and you will see in due time. Bait for the Cayman R? Or will it eat the Cayman alive? We'll have to wait and see.

Everyone focuses on the outgoing M3 (magnificent, of course) but what really whets my appetite is the new and very light F80. Granted, I'm heavily invested in carbon fiber now. I mean, come on. After watching constant sales reports going up up up for months on end I couldn't help but toss money their way.

To swing it back on topic, I really cannot believe that MB has a full glass (heavy) sunroof on an AMG. Perhaps on a luxurious E or S but seriously.....a full glass sunroof on what is supposed to be a 400lb c class sports car? As far as I'm concerned, invested in BMW or not, MB could have nailed the extra point to tie and then some had they merely shaved weight. But what MB certainly cannot do with an lci C refresh is beat the next gen M3. No way, no how.

The new m3 is not going hanse heavily done in cf and will not be much lighter than the current car.
Also, the cayman r is superior handling to anything BMW has ever made, and no m3 will ever handle as well...not that they compete in the same segment anyway. The cayman r is for people who want pinpoint precision and feel in a light, nimble and sublime package. The m3 is a quick touring car so while it should be faster in a straight line (460 hp vs 330 hp) it will never feel as good or be as quick on a track or back road.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

If you will track the car the I think the M3 is the better option. While AMG has gotten better with steering feel, braking and so forth is still a bit like a luxury musclecar. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Just curious how much seat time you have in a 2012 C63 to make this comment or if it is based on older models or what you have read? I ask because I own an M3 and have spent time with a 2012 C63 coupe on the track and the difference in feel is not significant. True, the M3 is still the more precise car but to call the C63 a "luxury musclecar" is uniformed and I suspect you have no real seat time to back this up. The 2012 cars are VERY new to the market and many who "speculate" do so based on what they hear on internet forums, a preconceived bias or what they read relative to older model reviews.

The C63 does have more of a musclecar feel because of the power/torque but it is also a very refined and balanced car with great steering feel (more feedback than the M3 in my opinion) and is a capable track car. M3 is still a tick better for sure but it is damn close.