Alcon BBK or just OEM calipers ?

[qbix]

I want to upgrade my brakes as the stock are a bit weak on the track.

It's not about their capability to decelerate the car but about their consistency.
At the end of each track session I feel a bit of fading and in general my thoughts are that these OEM brakes don't really like abusing. Something starts to squeal, the pedal feels different with the laps going...

I was adivsed on Alcon BBK but the thing is damn expensive. And all the good stuff said on this kit came out from it's seller.

My car is 95% daily car and I take it to a track no more than 1-2 times per month.

Do you think that going just with Pagid RS29 and stock calipers would be just enough?
I don't want to spend money on these pads which are expensive and then find out that it's not enough.

[sawzall]

It really depends on the amount of tracking you do. When clients come to us, we usually tell them to try running a set of Pagids, and some good brake fluid such as SRF or Motul RBF 600/660 as a baseline. In most cases for someone doing 5-6 track days a years, that should be sufficient. With the OEM brakes, Pagid makes the RS19, which is a great compound.

I love the Alcon kit - I ran it for quite a while on my M3, and i'm sure the other guys with the kit will chime in with good things to say as well. With this kit, I never had to worry about not having enough brakes. I was doing 40 minute sessions on tracks that are seriously hard on the brakes, and had no fade or other issues whatsoever. The Alcon kit is really well made, but there are two drawbacks. The pads are pretty expensive - and they aren't the same as 'normal' Alcon pad shapes, so you need a good vendor to stay on top of them for you. Also, the rotors are expensive - slightly more than Brembos, but frankly I think they'll well worth it. With the Alcon, I highly recommend running Pagid RS29 over the Carbotech (the Carbotechs are cheaper but they chew through rotors from my experience). If I were to buy another BBK for my car I would definitely go Alcon again.

If cost is an issue and you want to go to a BBK, take a look at the StopTech kit. It's really well engineered, the consumable costs are significantly cheaper than something like the Alcon, and also easier to source. From a performance perspective, it's right up there with Brembo and Alcon.

[STi_traitor]

I have been stuck on this decision for sometime myself now. I am stuck between OEM or a BBK. I have been using my OEM brakes at the Nurburgring and to be honest I really haven't had any issues with the cars braking system, I don't experience any fading towards the end. I had one issue where I melted a brake sensor but I just learned from that and I zip-tied it to the suspension.

I have ferodo 2500 pads front and rear for the track with OEM rotors. I honestly am starting to think that a BBK is overratted for these cars and will just upgrade the fluid to RBF600 and stronger brake lines. I did these simple changes on my STi and it was a complete game changer, the lines alone made a huge difference in pedal feel and confidence. In the end just remember the car is amazing and built solid....it was tested on the Nurburgring so it should be capable of handling any American style track.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that of course it also depends on your driving style, if you have a SC a BBK may be needed since you will be pushing the car beyond its OEM limits. When I first started tracking I was very brake heavy but now I incorporate more engine braking and this has helped greatly to the point that at times I don't even use my brakes.

[radiantm3]

Going to the track 1-2 times a month is quite a bit for a daily driven car. I think that warrants investing in a better brake system. After all brakes are also safety equipment and you can never be too safe. And if you don't need a BBK now, you will soon if you go that often.

[qbix]

Thanks for your inputs.

I think I will go first with just Pagids RS29. If that's not enough I will go BBK.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by qbix

Thanks for your inputs.

I think I will go first with just Pagids RS29. If that's not enough I will go BBK.

its really frowned upon here to be sensible and try to save money.

[ashtaron14]

I had OEM Brakes on the car, and then I got Brembo Gran Turismo 380mm Kit. Then because I downsized my wheels from 19" to 18" the Brembos wouldn't clear, so I put the OEM back on with Stoptech Pads & SS Lines. Now I am running Alcon Advantage Extreme 355mm Kit.

The Brembos' pedal feel is much like OEM, the pads are not that aggressive and provides a solid and reaffirming stop, but after trying my friend's Alcons, I just knew they are the ones to get. The Alcons' initial bite is more immediate (came with Ferodo DS2500) compared to the Brembos.

I guess here in HK, BBK is a must due to the way traffic flows and how people cut lanes without signaling or checking their blind spots.

[E92inSG]

I've recently been tracking on different brake setups so I feel qualified to give my views.

I had a set of Brembo 380mm cross drilled F and R with stock Brembo pads. I found they still faded noticeably after 4 HOT laps.

I then decided to swap to slotted discs as the drilled discs were starting to show signs of crack. Removed the brakes while waiting arrival of new rotors.

In the meantime back on the stock setup I invested in pagid RS19, castrol SRF And gruppe M steel lines. Let me tell u this setup doesn't lose a thing to the Brembo 380 setup with stock pads. Pedal feel and control is amazing and stopping power does not diminish after 5-6 hot laps. Your tires are likely to give up before your brakes go. I also had brake cooling ducts done up but the effect was minimal as I was still getting fade with Brembo, stock pads and ducts.

Now my brembos are back on with the slotted discs and I put on a set of endless cc-RG pads. I will feedback on the setup when I next track

I've had alcons on a previous ride and I don't like it because the initial bite was so strong it was hard to modulate the brakes. It was very much an all or nothing kind of application. But that was in alcon 4 pots.

Overall other than the looks of sporting a BBK setup, the stock calipers and rotors will perform very well on the track with a good set of pads lines and fluid.

[UBER ///M3]

This really has me thinking now..At first I was 100% all for getting a set of Stoptechs bc I can get them at cost...now I'm starting to think about Pagis-19s and saving money...1MOREMOD you track a good amount and are knowledgeable..what are your thoughts?

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by UBER ///M3

This really has me thinking now..At first I was 100% all for getting a set of Stoptechs bc I can get them at cost...now I'm starting to think about Pagis-19s and saving money...1MOREMOD you track a good amount and are knowledgeable..what are your thoughts?

Since you are getting a steal deal just get them. You will have a sexy lap instead of a regular lap!

[radiantm3]

Initial bite has way more to do with the pads you use than the caliper brand. Stock Brembo pads in the US are Ferodo DS2500's and they have very little initial bite. (Also worth noting that if your rotors are new, they will have absolutely no bite because of the chemical layer on them). My Endless track pads grab as soon as you touch the brake pedal. It's night and day.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by UBER ///M3

This really has me thinking now..At first I was 100% all for getting a set of Stoptechs bc I can get them at cost...now I'm starting to think about Pagis-19s and saving money...1MOREMOD you track a good amount and are knowledgeable..what are your thoughts?

I can offer my opinion after next week. I have been on stock rotors and calipers with rs19 pads on both the e90 and e46 to this point. I just installed the stoptech bbk last week and haven't done any track time yet. I have a one day each of the next 2 weeks so will be able to tell then. I will be disappointed if I don't feel some benefit. I already know the aerorotors cool better. After bedding then driving home I could touch my rotors and didn't expect that at all.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Initial bite has way more to do with the pads you use than the caliper brand. Stock Brembo pads in the US are Ferodo DS2500's and they have very little initial bite. (Also worth noting that if your rotors are new, they will have absolutely no bite because of the chemical layer on them). My Endless track pads grab as soon as you touch the brake pedal. It's night and day.

Which ones do you use, where do you get them? I still have a great deal of life left on my 2500's but if you are saing this is night and day I am going to give them a shot.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

Which ones do you use, where do you get them? I still have a great deal of life left on my 2500's but if you are saing this is night and day I am going to give them a shot.

Ds2500 is a decent intermediate pad but once you really start using them a set doesn't last more than a couple days. Switch to rs19s or better and you will see a difference. Next week will be my first experience with stoptechs, and their sr34 pads.

[UBER ///M3]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

Since you are getting a steal deal just get them. You will have a sexy lap instead of a regular lap!

yeah true, I just wanna research a little more to see if its worth it...I still have to pay for clubsports and seats without the wife complaining too much

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I can offer my opinion after next week. I have been on stock rotors and calipers with rs19 pads on both the e90 and e46 to this point. I just installed the stoptech bbk last week and haven't done any track time yet. I have a one day each of the next 2 weeks so will be able to tell then. I will be disappointed if I don't feel some benefit. I already know the aerorotors cool better. After bedding then driving home I could touch my rotors and didn't expect that at all.

oh ok that would be a HUGE help..what pads did you go with the Stoptechs? and youre running ST40s all around correct? on my E92 I planned on going with ST60s front and ST40s rear

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by UBER ///M3

oh ok that would be a HUGE help..what pads did you go with the Stoptechs? and youre running ST40s all around correct? on my E92 I planned on going with ST60s front and ST40s rear

I am trying out stoptechs relatively new sr34s. Not really sure the st60 is needed. Also nice to have same pads all the way around just like with tires. Allows exptra flexibility. St40 fronts have different sized pistons than rears so should offer every bit as much stopping power. If the st60 was so much better it wouldn't work with the same rear st40 kit because balance would be off.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

Which ones do you use, where do you get them? I still have a great deal of life left on my 2500's but if you are saing this is night and day I am going to give them a shot.

ME20's. But they are terrible street pads. They will squeal all day unless you are on a race track. I'm sure they'd also end up putting lots of extra wear on the rotors if you use them as street pads. They won't leave pad transfer on the rotors like a street pad will unless you are braking really hard all the time (like at the track). After a track day I'll have a good layer of pad transfer on my rotors and it will last for a couple days. Eventually the pads will scrub it all off and then the squealing begins.

I have a new set of Endless street pads that will go on my car once I swap my rotors so it will be interesting to see how those are compared to the Ferodo's.

[UBER ///M3]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I am trying out stoptechs relatively new sr34s. Not really sure the st60 is needed. Also nice to have same pads all the way around just like with tires. Allows exptra flexibility. St40 fronts have different sized pistons than rears so should offer every bit as much stopping power. If the st60 was so much better it wouldn't work with the same rear st40 kit because balance would be off.

yeah that makes sense..if you could let me know your thoughts bc I have time before I decide on which route to go..plus STI drive around together almost everyday anyways after work so we will be constantly comparing and prolly decide on the best route after seeing how each others car brakes on and off the track...In a perfect world I wanna go BBK, but at the same time its extra money when maybe upgraded pads is the answer...then I tell myself just go for it haha..its an ongoing battle and with guys that have gone through the trials and reviews it helps a lot

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Ds2500 is a decent intermediate pad but once you really start using them a set doesn't last more than a couple days. Switch to rs19s or better and you will see a difference. Next week will be my first experience with stoptechs, and their sr34 pads.

I purchase the 2500's for that fact so I don't have to swap them out all the time.....I am lazy! I will have to start trying a racing pad and swapping. I enjoy the 2500's but they do tend to squeal on DD but spraying down my wheels from time to time has helped this.

Originally Posted by radiantm3

ME20's. But they are terrible street pads. They will squeal all day unless you are on a race track. I'm sure they'd also end up putting lots of extra wear on the rotors if you use them as street pads. They won't leave pad transfer on the rotors like a street pad will unless you are braking really hard all the time (like at the track). After a track day I'll have a good layer of pad transfer on my rotors and it will last for a couple days. Eventually the pads will scrub it all off and then the squealing begins.

I have a new set of Endless street pads that will go on my car once I swap my rotors so it will be interesting to see how those are compared to the Ferodo's.

Good to know, the 2500's tend to do a good amount of buildup after a day at the Ring. I have a long drive home (4 hours) so they are cleaned off by that time. They do squeal after about a week or two of daily driving but I spray my wheels and brakes down and they are good to go. I will have to give these or the ones 1MOREMOD is recommending a try.

You have used 2500's before? Are you trying the new Endless Street Pads at the track?

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by UBER ///M3

yeah that makes sense..if you could let me know your thoughts bc I have time before I decide on which route to go..plus STI drive around together almost everyday anyways after work so we will be constantly comparing and prolly decide on the best route after seeing how each others car brakes on and off the track...In a perfect world I wanna go BBK, but at the same time its extra money when maybe upgraded pads is the answer...then I tell myself just go for it haha..its an ongoing battle and with guys that have gone through the trials and reviews it helps a lot

I make your SIG look good!

[UBER ///M3]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

I make your SIG look good!

hahaha...NOOOOOOO we make the Ring look good when we are flying by everyone as the spectators look in awe seeing back to back ///Ms killing it!!!

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by UBER ///M3

yeah that makes sense..if you could let me know your thoughts bc I have time before I decide on which route to go..plus STI drive around together almost everyday anyways after work so we will be constantly comparing and prolly decide on the best route after seeing how each others car brakes on and off the track...In a perfect world I wanna go BBK, but at the same time its extra money when maybe upgraded pads is the answer...then I tell myself just go for it haha..its an ongoing battle and with guys that have gone through the trials and reviews it helps a lot

I was never sold on bbk either but when I bought my car it had all 4 rotors at minimum thickness so I choose to upgrade rather than spend 1000 bucks on rotors I didn't want. I'm still not sure I made the right choice. I don't change pads at the track now as my only driving on the street is to and from the track basically. I may start though as the stoptech bridge makes things so easy.