Would you still buy a M3 IF...

[kawchkjf]

You guys are kidding me right?

You want a car that is built by a person who is paid well, has vacation, and awesome benefits. All of these things can be done in China.

But the reason why it's sourced out, is so that companies can save on those things. Rendering poor products.

Just because it's China made, it doesn't mean it will be bad. Anything is good as long as you have the money.

[dmppdx]

Part of the issue is culture. Germany are well know for being up tight and meticulous in they way the live their lives as well as how they do their jobs. China is the exact opposite. Everything is kind of half assed there. Sure, you can get stuff made cheaply, but their isn't the ingrained emphasis on taking the time to do things right there. The culture standard is for doing things fast and cheap over quality and expense. Even most chinese admit that and why the chinese themselves equate foreign made products with being better quality. Maybe a germany company can overcome that culture with Chinese employees working in a chinese factory, but it would be an uphill battle.

[Nine]

I hate this thread!!!!

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by dmppdx

Part of the issue is culture. Germany are well know for being up tight and meticulous in they way the live their lives as well as how they do their jobs.

+1

Originally Posted by checkmate

I think the bigger question is whether another industralized country can make the M3 better than the Germans? The only one that comes to mind is the Japanese...for one a Japanese made M3 will not have electrical issues which the Germans never seem to grasp.

Imagine a M3 that was made by Honda? That would be LEGENDARY!! Would never have to worry about subframe failures or any other mechanical issues. German quality control has a while to go.

I can answer that with a resounding NO..I lived and worked in Europe including Germany..spent countless hours auditing companies in Dusseldorf, Munich, Berlin...I have yet to see a group of people with a more meticulous attention to detail and anality for perfection than the Germans..my 2 cents from personal experience..

[Ti335]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

pretty much everything else in the US is made in China, or Taiwan, or Asia.

If I want an Asian car, I'd buy one from an Asian car maker.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Nine

I hate this thread!!!!

you can't handle the truth!

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by dmppdx

Part of the issue is culture. Germany are well know for being up tight and meticulous in they way the live their lives as well as how they do their jobs.

they are perfectionists
open up any german car and compare to the japanese car
obvious differences
on a lexus for example
the parts you see are great, but open up the dashboard (like when you remove the stereo for example)
and all the wires are wrapped using the cheap black electrical tape
open up the BMW (or audi, mercedes etc) and they use the more expensive cloth tape.
the germans wont do something, unless they do it to the best of their abilities
same can't be said for the chinese or italians, french etc
germans, by nature, don't cut corners.

just don't expect humour out of them

[Ti335]

It doesn't matter where cars and car parts are made. The Chinese are just as capable of building a quality product as anybody else...at least, that's what Ford thought when it decided to put a Chinese transmission in the 2011 Mustang. The result speaks for itself:

[JulieDriving]

Originally Posted by dmppdx

Part of the issue is culture. Germany are well know for being up tight and meticulous in they way the live their lives as well as how they do their jobs. China is the exact opposite. Everything is kind of half assed there. Sure, you can get stuff made cheaply, but their isn't the ingrained emphasis on taking the time to do things right there. The culture standard is for doing things fast and cheap over quality and expense. Even most chinese admit that and why the chinese themselves equate foreign made products with being better quality. Maybe a germany company can overcome that culture with Chinese employees working in a chinese factory, but it would be an uphill battle.

Are you sure?

The Chinese have a culture of being very hardworking because they were mostly a people that were very poor and had to labour in the fields. I sure was taught to aim for excellence - no, actually perfection - in everything I did. And study and work for hours and hours on end.

I would bet that those poor, extremely hard working Chinese factory workers strive very hard to do the best job they can. But it's their greedy, arrogant, rich, abusive bosses who don't pay them shit, push them to produce far faster than they're capable of, and who pocket $$$ essentially all the profit that leads to the poor quality issues.

[Erhan]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/...ss_igoogle_cnn

[checkmate]

Originally Posted by erhanh

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/...ss_igoogle_cnn

Yep. Its these damn contractors who prey off these poor laborers and provide them with substandard pay and working conditions. Chinese contractors are to blame and not the hardworking Chinese people.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by erhanh

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/11/world/...ss_igoogle_cnn

DAMN!

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

I see everyone as being equal ... as far as products being build anywhere in the world it all depends on ...

Proper training = knowledge

Proper tools = good quality

Proper pay = happy work force

then combine the above with Good Leadership you will end up with ...

Good Leadership + Knowledge + Quality + Happy Work Force = Quality End Product

So it should not make a difference at all if produced in any part of the world, if however the chain is broken (mainly by top management) then this simple formula is no longer valid. Product recall follows and finally closure of a plant. In my mind there simply is too much greed to reduce costs (look at major companies once the leaders were Engineers, now replaced by Accountants) on the final product ... all this is fine as far as cost reduction is concerned etc, however if it affects the final product then the results eventually lead to failure. My 2 cents anyway on this subject.

[checkmate]

Maybe we should just have car companies with no shareholders. Now isn't that a pleasant thought..

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Maybe we should just have car companies with no shareholders. Now isn't that a pleasant thought..

That would work in any industry
I know I might be in a minority
But i think the obsession with the share price is what's hitting reliability in most fields
All you worry about is that upward slope of your share price
Nothing else
As long as your share price is worth more than it was last month
You'll get your big fat bonus
I can cut 25% cost of any company I'm given to manage for a few years
But at what cost?
R&D?
Pensions?
Price/quality of components?

[jrswann]

Probably not.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by erhanh

This is a very good example of what might happen. We had a Rabbit (which is like a golf) that kept having headlight issues. Even now we joke about it every time we see a VW car with a headlight out (which we see very often). Very shady quality.

Very funny you mention this! I too have noticed that if you see a car going down the highway with a taillight or headlight out, 9 times out of 10 it is a VW. I have owned many VW's and have changed lots of bulbs for sure. I am not sure what they do different with their electrical systems that causes this!

[Nine]

Originally Posted by kmarei

That would work in any industry
I know I might be in a minority
But i think the obsession with the share price is what's hitting reliability in most fields
All you worry about is that upward slope of your share price
Nothing else
As long as your share price is worth more than it was last month
You'll get your big fat bonus
I can cut 25% cost of any company I'm given to manage for a few years
But at what cost?
R&D?
Pensions?
Price/quality of components?

Exactly, companies like fixed costs, not variable costs. Corporations thrive with the buy in from their shareholders, and who wants to buy in on a company with decreased profit margins...

[JS11]

i would prefer to have the engines made where the engineers can oversee the production on a daily basis. i don't think bmw can do that anywhere in the world other than germany.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Very funny you mention this! I too have noticed that if you see a car going down the highway with a taillight or headlight out, 9 times out of 10 it is a VW. I have owned many VW's and have changed lots of bulbs for sure. I am not sure what they do different with their electrical systems that causes this!

I actually think it is a scam. Let me explain. Once one of the headlights went out in our 07 Rabbit. We were lazy, and didn't do anything about it for like 2-3 weeks. Out of the clear blue sky, one morning the headlight was working again... True story.

It is a cash cow for VW.. Lights go out every once in a while to make you take your car to service. There, it is a scam.

[serranot]

I am not taking a position either way. I think both sides of this debate have points to make.

Currently, China is undergoing pains that all countries who are post industrial revolution have undergone. It's workers are fighting low wages and deplorable working conditions. I believe they will eventually prevail. Until then, it is still cheaper to manufacture things there.

I don't think saying that Chinese autos are crap and other countries' cars are modern is really too relevant. Remember the Beetle? A total piece of stamped crap by anyone's current standard, yet very popular in developing countries where cheap transportation is a necessity. We buy things like airbags in this country because we can now afford them; notice there was no interest in such a mandate back in the 70's when airbag technology was developed. So saying that Chinese autos are cheap crap might be true now, but it's not relevant to whether the Chinese are capable of making BMW engines. They likely are capable of doing so.

The issue of whether you choose to support China in its current form is a different question.

[hasan]

I will as long as ///M sign on it