First Drive

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by Just_me

Have you driven one?

Compared to the C63 yes, not compared to a Ford Focus. Rs4 have had 420hp for a long time now. Bmw should have given the M3 at least 440hp, at least it would look good on paper and good for bragging rights.

The horsepower gap between M3 E46 and M5 E39 was much smaller than M3 E92 and M5 e60. Why the hell did they change that for the new M3.


I really hope the M3 engine has more power than BMW claim it does.

I think it is very doubtful the M3 motor is underrated. The twin turbo in the 335 is a different story. I beleive it IS underrated because it encroaches on M3 performance as it is. There is no reason to underrate the M3 motor, because it is supposed to be M's response to the RS4, C63, etc. To underrate it would only hurt its marketing against those cars.

Whether the HP deficit of the M outweighs (pun intended) its advantages vis a vis the competition (which I have been concerned about for quite a while, as I have said here and elsewhere) still remains to be seen.

One thing that I have been thinking about is Steved's description of the M presentation at the press event. He said it was all about efficient dynamics, IIRC. That focus may indicate BMW knows the M3 will not meet certain performance metrics of some competitors (not only HP but also straight line accelleration, possibly even handling), so they want to emphasize the other qualities of the car. But who will buy the M3 because it is more efficient than the competitors (whatever that means) if the performance of the car is lacking in comparison?

I hope my speculation is not right.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Could have fooled me.

You got that right.

[LJ35DRVR]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Could have fooled me.

Are you the guy that drove the car and is now answering questions about it? No? Then STFU. Thanks.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by LJ35DRVR

Are you the guy that drove the car and is now answering questions about it? No? Then STFU. Thanks.

Wow, talk about overreaction. How old are you?
Not sure why you are asking some question you made up and then answering it...

[hks786]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Wow, talk about overreaction. How old are you?
Not sure why you are asking some question you made up and then answering it...

[hks786]

Originally Posted by ILC32

I think it is very doubtful the M3 motor is underrated. The twin turbo in the 335 is a different story. I beleive it IS underrated because it encroaches on M3 performance as it is. There is no reason to underrate the M3 motor, because it is supposed to be M's response to the RS4, C63, etc. To underrate it would only hurt its marketing against those cars.

Whether the HP deficit of the M outweighs (pun intended) its advantages vis a vis the competition (which I have been concerned about for quite a while, as I have said here and elsewhere) still remains to be seen.

One thing that I have been thinking about is Steved's description of the M presentation at the press event. He said it was all about efficient dynamics, IIRC. That focus may indicate BMW knows the M3 will not meet certain performance metrics of some competitors (not only HP but also straight line accelleration, possibly even handling), so they want to emphasize the other qualities of the car. But who will buy the M3 because it is more efficient than the competitors (whatever that means) if the performance of the car is lacking in comparison?

I hope my speculation is not right.

Interesting points. +1 I dont think it is underrated....

[LJ35DRVR]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Wow, talk about overreaction. How old are you?
Not sure why you are asking some question you made up and then answering it...

Overreaction? My age? Not sure why you are still posting when its clear you have nothing useful to add. Now, go back to your coloring book and STFU. You are ruining an informative thread. Thanks.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by LJ35DRVR

Overreaction? My age? Not sure why you are still posting when its clear you have nothing useful to add. Now, go back to your coloring book and STFU. You are ruining an informative thread. Thanks.

I understand. This is how you show you anger when someone calls you out on trying to compare your 335i to the new M3. Aren't there enough threads for you on this topic. You ruined this thread by turning it into another one of the "vs" threads.
Everyone can see it, so just go about your business.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by Epacy

I understand. This is how you show you anger when someone calls you out on trying to compare your 335i to the new M3. Aren't there enough threads for you on this topic. You ruined this thread by turning it into another one of the "vs" threads.
Everyone can see it, so just go about your business.

+1

You did say: "I'm not really trying to ask if the modded 335 is as good as an M."

then you said: "is a modded 335 even in the same league?"'

and: "What about a 335 with a $1300 ECU piggyback + $1500 exhaust putting down 375 whp/405 lb/ft torque?"

[LJ35DRVR]

Originally Posted by Epacy

someone calls you out

There you go again. I see that I am the second person you have "called out" on this one thread. Who the fuck are you, the internet police? Why do you feel that it is your duty to "call people out?"

Look dude, I'm just trying to get some answers to some personal questions from the only guy I know of that has actually driven the new M3. I currently have a 335. I'm in the position to place an order for an M3 if I wish it. Do I want to spend 3000 bucks to upgrade my 335 or $10000-$15000 on upgrading to the M3. Simple as that.

The only person ruining this thread is you with your nitwit comments trying to "call people out." Get over yourself. Nobody wants to wade through all of your waste of space internet policing posts. You should be embarrassed. In fact, I'm a bit embarrassed that I am now associated with your stupidity. Please, for the sake of your beloved internet, or at least this thread, take my earlier advice and STFU. Now, hopefully this can be done and Mr Davies will see fit to entertain my original questions.

[LJ35DRVR]

Originally Posted by hks786

+1

You did say: "I'm not really trying to ask if the modded 335 is as good as an M."

then you said: "is a modded 335 even in the same league?"'

and: "What about a 335 with a $1300 ECU piggyback + $1500 exhaust putting down 375 whp/405 lb/ft torque?"

I know what I said, after all, I said it. I'm not trying to turn this into a "vs" thread. You guys are. I just want someone who's actually driven both cars to give me an opinion before I make a decision on spending what is (to me) a fairly significant chunk of cash. I'm not sure what you're trying to support in the above quote. Yes, I asked those questions. Can you answer them? What I want to know is whether a non-M 3 series putting down roughly the same power as the M version can even be compared to the M version. It is obviously going to have other shortcomings of being a non-M (brakes, suspension, steering) but at the end of the day it is still BMW and an awesome machine. BL, is it worth my money and is there any way to decide without having personally driven the M?

[aerisolphaln]

Originally Posted by ILC32

He said it was all about efficient dynamics, IIRC. That focus may indicate BMW knows the M3 will not meet certain performance metrics of some competitors (not only HP but also straight line accelleration, possibly even handling), so they want to emphasize the other qualities of the car. But who will buy the M3 because it is more efficient than the competitors (whatever that means) if the performance of the car is lacking in comparison?

I hope my speculation is not right.

Very good point about BMW's potential knowledge that this M3 is no longer the king in performance and driving dynamics in this range...

It already loses out in the styling department, both inside and out, to the current RS4 and soon to be released C63. Now if it loses the "driving dynamic" battle, as well as the straight line speed battle, about the only reason to buy the thing is to say "I have an M car that has more "effecient dynamics" than the other guys..."

[Greg P]

Disappointed at the unnecessary rheteric going on here, when everyone should be focussing their energies on what should be one of the most exciting cars to come out this year.

[Drew10]

LJ35DRVR, Epacy Kumbaya my Lord, kumbayaaaaa....

[RandyB]

I'll take this one. The new M3 will wipe the floor with a modded 335. Done.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by Greg P

Disappointed at the unnecessary rheteric going on here, when everyone should be focussing their energies on what should be one of the most exciting cars to come out this year.

Ahh, you must be speaking of the new M3, not the 335...

[Steved]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

Steved, thanks for the great write up. What I want to know, and I think Gabri was going in this direction, is how does it handle compared to the Z4M? It's obviously got more power, but how does it feel when hitting turns hard? Also, what's the weight balance look like? Is close to 50/50 or more like 52/48?

P.S. I love your car collection.

Yes, it is quicker than the Z4M. Handling wise the Z4MC can be quite twitchy on the limit, due to its short wheelbase whereas the E92 M3 like M3's before it is more benign at the limit and in fact I would say is 'easier' to drift than the E46 M3. You will really enjoy driving it, it allows you to dig deeper into its talents than the E46.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by LJ35DRVR

Steve,
Do you have any experience in the 335? What about a 335 with an ECU piggyback for more power? I guess the questions I'm getting at are: The 335 is quick (faster than BMW's official numbers), how does the new M compare? Is it night and day, hands down, M all the way, or would the 335 hold its own? What about a 335 with a $1300 ECU piggyback + $1500 exhaust putting down 375 whp/405 lb/ft torque? I'm not really trying to ask if the modded 335 is as good as an M. Obviously you can't turn a 3-series into an M without some serious effort/cost, but bang for the buck, for a person who will never ever track the car, is a modded 335 even in the same league?
Thanks for the insight thus far. Very enjoyable.

I've driven several 335i and in standard form it would be clearly beaten by an M3 in terms of acceleration, but the M3 driver would need to use more revs which clearly is how it is designed to perform. It would also be thoroughly beaten in terms of handling, steering feel and braking. Essentially the gap between 335i and E92 M3 is similar to the gap between 330i and M3 when the E46 was launched back in 2001. Many people though will find the 335i adequate for their needs, but those who want an M-car will find it worth their while moving up to an M3.

A properly tuned 335i would clearly be as quick as an M3 on the road, unless the M3 driver really extended the revs, but there's a lot more to the M3 than just straight line performance (as there always has been with M3s).

What you would miss with a modded 335i is the way the M3 sounds as it accelerates and the competence of the chassis when really pressing on. The 335i is a 7/10ths car, great up to a point but the M3 is a 9/10ths car with deeper reserves of talent, should you choose to use them. BMW clearly wish to offer their customers a choice, and they have chosen to make the M3 more hard-core to create more distance over the 335i.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by M3onTwomps

I must've missed where he insulted you.

But, I'll go ahead. You come across as an arrogant prick.

OK guys sorry to take this terrible bait. I know the thread has already been hijacked quite a bit but I guess I just can't take this one "sitting down"...

M3onTwomps: No comment was needed from you, period. Someone misunderstood my post (perhaps a few), I agree how it could have been easily misunderstood. I stated clearly what I meant and my posts demonstrated evidence of my real intent. I'd even bet if you read a bit more carefully you would see that. Epacy and I worked out our minor tiff pretty much like gentlemen and now you have to pull in here soaked with gasoline and belching insults as well? I ain't going to stoop to your level. My reputation as quick, fair and knowledgeable stands for itself on this board. Keep on topic and go find someone else to pick a fight with. Ugh.

[Gabri343]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

Steved, thanks for the great write up. What I want to know, and I think Gabri was going in this direction, is how does it handle compared to the Z4M? It's obviously got more power, but how does it feel when hitting turns hard? Also, what's the weight balance look like? Is close to 50/50 or more like 52/48?

P.S. I love your car collection.

Auto (italian):
Z4 M Coupè 0-100 km/h 4"9
0-1000m 23"62 (997 S 23"51)

M3 Ring time declared 8'12"
Z4 M Roadster tested 8'15"

[adamr]

SteveD thanks for the great info ... i had my concerns that the V8 would not have been as "exciting" as the straight 6 ... i felt this when i drove the E39 M5 and RS4 ... maybe this sounds stupid, but with the V8's your revs pick up slowly and you kinda deceived with the speed you doing ... you knew you in a V8 and there just that something about the straight 6 that is more "animal" about it ...

Well you kinda re-assured me now with your posts that buying the new ///M i wont be dis-appointed. owned 3 of them so far ... thanks again SteveD

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by Gabri343

Auto (italian):
Z4 M Coupè 0-100 km/h 4"9
0-1000m 23"62 (997 S 23"51)

M3 Ring time declared 8'12"
Z4 M Roadster tested 8'15"

Yes...the M Roadster is 8:15. Still no official time on the M Coupe (that I've been able to find anyway) except "faster than the M Roadster"

Steved did you ever get a chance to run some laps in the M Coupe at the 'ring? I was in germany with mine for a few weeks but with moving and break in, I never made it. However, if you look at my sigpic closely, you'll see I made it through break in, and to the speed limiter.