M3 vs. 1M

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by adc

....[T]he main reason people buy BMW's - it's because at heart, they are useful daily cars. They mostly feature 4-5 seats, are comfortable (even the M versions) and yet posses a level of driver involvement or satisfaction that no other sedan has.

Nobody here has driven the damn thing, so we're all just shooting BS, waiting for the time to pass.

As most threads do, this one has strayed a bit from the original topic into what I'd call "comparative bang for the buck territory". Yes, you could buy an E46, or a few other things for that matter, and blow the 1M and probably the M3 out of the water used + mods vs. new. That probably belongs in another thread. Those kind of comparisons can be kind of fun--at least for some folks who may want to compare options of what a certain budget could buy you to achieve X or Y putting by out a field of new and used/modified cars and having some fun. Pointless? Probably! But so are a lot of these shooting the breeze discussions. Like I said, that is best left for another thread for another time and perhaps we should get back on topic (which I've certainly contributed to dragging off course).

Back to topic (well, kind of) BMW does indeed make some very great DD cars that meet a host of needs while not succumbing "Camry-itis". It is part of what defines the brand--sporting sedans and the what BMW now likes to call "the joy of driving" (still prefer ultimate driving machine, but whatever) as compared to the alternatives which define "the boredom of driving" or "why bother driving".

I'm happy to see BMW "getting it" in terms of weight with the 1M (and making it look better too) while still retaining the pluses that go with their usual offerings. I think that's very encouraging for the future--and it's nice to see a lighter and less fully luxury version of offerings in a smaller package. It looks like 1M does have a role to play for the person who wants something that can serve multiple roles while still providing pretty darn good performance in what is a fairly accessible price (for what you get) for a new car. M3 suspension...priceless.

The fact that these cars can serve multiple roles--and I'm partial to the M3 which I think is the best available for a driver in you need room for 4 plus--is also why I've recommended the current M3 sedan to two friends in as many days (get it while you can). Nothing out there beats it if you've got kids or a need for some room and still want a car that's just about second to none to anything else you could find to drive. (One friend was considering an upper-end SUV--but coming from a 911 I just couldn't see that working for him.....)

And yeah, we're just shooting the breeze until we get a chance to drive one--which I fully intend to do if I have half a chance.

[Sedan_Clan]

I agree with Bruce.....I like the 1. We recently purchased a 128i with the M-Pkg for my g/f, and it is definitely an enjoyable car to drive. I can see myself enjoying a 1M over my current E9X M3. Will I take the plunge and trade in my IB gem? Naw! Financing at 0.9% on my E9X makes keeping the car a no-brainer. Will I be considering a 1M at some point? Definitely!

[bavarian06]

its 3400lbs, that completely defeats its purpose (a light weight, more tossable version of the M3). i like how the interior comes with alcantra (if that is standard) but look at how cramp and narrow the leg room is.

i'm sure dinan will come out with an overboost ecu, larger FMIC, and it will rival/beat the m3; but definitely not in status or comfort.

at close to $50K and 3400lbs, its a fail IMO.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by bavarian06

its 3400lbs, that completely defeats its purpose (a light weight, more tossable version of the M3). i like how the interior comes with alcantra (if that is standard) but look at how cramp and narrow the leg room is.

i'm sure dinan will come out with an overboost ecu, larger FMIC, and it will rival/beat the m3; but definitely not in status or comfort.

at close to $50K and 3400lbs, its a fail IMO.

But it is more "tossable". As much as I love my M3, my previous 135i was a blast to drive as well and it did feel lighter and more nimble.

And the car never felt cramp at all. I've had 3 large adults as passengers in my 135i and aside from getting in and out of a coupe, there was enough room. Granted, I'm an average height.

As far as status/comfort is concerned, that's not why I bought my 135i or the M3. If I was looking for those characteristics, I would have gotten a Mercedes or even a 550i if I wanted to stay with BMW.

[brizzom]

We are talking about a comparison between a 1m and an m3.

If you want to talk about used caymans start a new thread

[saeedg48]

both fast.. 1M = childs car
M3 = Ima boss bitch

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I never said BMW couldnt make a nice car. I have owned 5 M cars and 7 BMWs...so obviously I think they make some nice cars.

My M3 has few options - EDC, fold rear seats, iPod, heated seats, metallic paint, CF trim and alarm - it came at $55k out the door.

So when you are comparing car prices, you cannot take into consideration how much discount you can get, it's varies from dealer to dealer, time of the year, delivery option and state of the economy. Compare MSRP so it's apples to apples.

Cayman S starts at $61k. Loaded it's $70k-$74k (and that's staying away from silly options like embroidered mufflers).

1M will start around $45k base (agreed-upon best guess). Loaded it will be $55k.

So you're talking about a car that has a $45k - $55k range, vs. a car that has a $61k - $80k range.

As I've said it makes no sense to discuss discounts or personal negotiation skills - for example, if I were to buy one it would cost around $50k US MSRP, so around $46,500 ED MSRP, probably around $45k + TTL.

And you managed to completely miss my point - I fully expect you'll reply to this and tell us how you can buy a leftover new 2008 model Cayman for $30k.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Taking the tires into consideration does indeed make the accomplishment of the 1M chassis even more impressive but only of the tires used on the 1M for its hot lap are somehow inferior to the PSC+...

Good point.

Originally Posted by swamp2

I though the consensus here on the form was that a PSC+ is way closer to a PS2 than it is to a true PSC. Thus, I'm questioning the 5 seconds for the PSC+...

To me, forum consensus is completely inconsequential when Rohrl says the PSC+ sneakers are worth five seconds at the 'Ring. Even so, PSCs are likely worth around twice that, assuming my experiences with DOT-legal track sneakers are in any way transferable.

Of course, Rohrl's experience is with various Porsches, but I believe his experience would be transferable to other makes which post more or less similar times.

[bavarian06]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

I agree, I had a 135i loaner for a day and it was tons of fun driving it. I would buy the 1M in a heartbeat if it had the V8.

i would imagine a v8 sitting in front of the axel would make it handle like crap. its not like our v8 has monster torque anyways. the N54 engine is a good fit for the 1M.

it needs to go on a diet, big time. i hope the ft-86 and the rx-7 comes out soon. under 3000lbs, north of 250hp, under $30K. guess that's why porsches performs so well, now imagine it for $40K less. now that is a win.

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by bavarian06

i would imagine a v8 sitting in front of the axel would make it handle like crap. its not like our v8 has monster torque anyways. the N54 engine is a good fit for the 1M.

it needs to go on a diet, big time. i hope the ft-86 and the rx-7 comes out soon. under 3000lbs, north of 250hp, under $30K. guess that's why porsches performs so well, now imagine it for $40K less. now that is a win.

I dont think our V8 is much more heavier if at all over the n54, two turbos and their plumbing and i/c. etc add weight

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

But it is more "tossable". As much as I love my M3, my previous 135i was a blast to drive as well and it did feel lighter and more nimble.

And the car never felt cramp at all. I've had 3 large adults as passengers in my 135i and aside from getting in and out of a coupe, there was enough room. Granted, I'm an average height.

As far as status/comfort is concerned, that's not why I bought my 135i or the M3. If I was looking for those characteristics, I would have gotten a Mercedes or even a 550i if I wanted to stay with BMW.

First, don't flame me.

I also had a 135i. The 135i IMHO was not more stable or more nimble then the M3. The M3 is very precise, with very little roll.. point the car and that's where you go. At higher speed (100+) the 135i felt unstable and jumpy on anything but perfect asphalt, the M3 feels like a bullet train on rails on almost any surface.

BMW basically M3'd the 135i and got the 1M. I like the car, but BMW didn't go far enough. DCT was excluded from the car to save weight and $$$. Take the 1M slap 200lbs and $2900 on it and people would say no-way. This nonsense about the M3 getting killed by a DCT 1M is just that - nonsense.

Just my 2 cents

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

To me, forum consensus is completely inconsequential when Rohrl says the PSC+ sneakers are worth five seconds at the 'Ring. Even so, PSCs are likely worth around twice that, assuming my experiences with DOT-legal track sneakers are in any way transferable.

Sure, if he said it, it's right, no disagreement there. Can you share with us the reference? I'm still trying to figure out what tires the 1M got its time with.

[bavarian06]

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

I dont think our V8 is much more heavier if at all over the n54, two turbos and their plumbing and i/c. etc add weight

not sure if its lighter but more the engine placement. i dont know first hand how big or rather smaller the 1 series engine compartment is compared to the 3, but the cars handling would suffer if the engine rode infront of the axel trying to fit a v8, like crappy audi S4/RS4 did.

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by bavarian06

not sure if its lighter but more the engine placement. i dont know first hand how big or rather smaller the 1 series engine compartment is compared to the 3, but the cars handling would suffer if the engine rode infront of the axel trying to fit a v8, like crappy audi S4/RS4 did.

audi are fwd cars, that is why it is in front of the axle. V8 should be shorter then a Inline 6

[adc]

Originally Posted by bavarian06

not sure if its lighter but more the engine placement. i dont know first hand how big or rather smaller the 1 series engine compartment is compared to the 3, but the cars handling would suffer if the engine rode infront of the axel trying to fit a v8, like crappy audi S4/RS4 did.

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

audi are fwd cars, that is why it is in front of the axle. V8 should be shorter then a Inline 6

The V8 (S65) is significantly shorter than the N54 inline 6 - so it's in fact much easier to place further towards the middle of the car, improving weight distribution.

The engine bay of the M3, 135 etc. look *nothing* at all like Audi's. BMW doesn't hang the engines forward of the front axle, regardless of body style and engine configuration.

Mini might be different, on the other hand.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Sure, if he said it, it's right, no disagreement there. Can you share with us the reference? I'm still trying to figure out what tires the 1M got its time with.

I have no idea where I read this, but it was fairly recent. Definitely in the last month or two...

I'll look for it.

[graider]

exactly. i'm not sure how one can even argue this fact and bring used car or discounted car into the comparison. makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Originally Posted by adc

My M3 has few options - EDC, fold rear seats, iPod, heated seats, metallic paint, CF trim and alarm - it came at $55k out the door.

So when you are comparing car prices, you cannot take into consideration how much discount you can get, it's varies from dealer to dealer, time of the year, delivery option and state of the economy. Compare MSRP so it's apples to apples.

Cayman S starts at $61k. Loaded it's $70k-$74k (and that's staying away from silly options like embroidered mufflers).

1M will start around $45k base (agreed-upon best guess). Loaded it will be $55k.

So you're talking about a car that has a $45k - $55k range, vs. a car that has a $61k - $80k range.

As I've said it makes no sense to discuss discounts or personal negotiation skills - for example, if I were to buy one it would cost around $50k US MSRP, so around $46,500 ED MSRP, probably around $45k + TTL.

And you managed to completely miss my point - I fully expect you'll reply to this and tell us how you can buy a leftover new 2008 model Cayman for $30k.

[Robert]

I am not terribly excited with the 1M. Its weakest point is the engine given the infamous history of N54 and I had a chance to experience it first hand. Second E82 is an awfully dated platform at this point and the next platform is right around the corner. I am a value shopper and I want the most bang for the buck. Doesn't make sense to get a M on a platform soon to be replaced.

It's going to be a decent vehicle but definite nowhere as "special" as past M car has been.

[BMW269]

1M + S65 = YES
1M + N54 = NO

S54: 217 kg
S65: 204 kg
N54: 188 kg
N55: 184 kg