400 RWHP Club?

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by TMR

Tom posted my dyno sheet earlier ( post #46 ) in this thread where my car was dynoed with a magnaflow catback, removed second cats, proceed and vishnu meth kit, my car hit the 400 club. Its been rock solid, no issues at all.

Your 400 rwhp dyno was in STD; the SAE dyno was less and not enough to give you membership in the 400 rwhp club though I think you would be there with a catless x-pipe and an underdrive pulley.

[EDDYFIG]

Do the pulleys make a significant gain? is 400 atainable without them. (not sure if it was mentioned earlier,didnt read all the pages)

[pbonsalb]

Pulley seems to be worth about 10 rwhp. Since 400 rwhp SAE on a Dynojet is so hard to obtain (two dynos have been posted here in the two years I have been on the forums, versus about 50 dynos of modded cars in the 370-390 rwhp range, you probably need all the mods.

[Longbow64]

Mike is right. I was consistently getting an SES with the Procede/meth combo and at one point I found my grounding wire loose which was causing misfires after starting the car. I returned the Procede and meth kit back to Vishnu for refurbishing and unlocking the VIN. They found that the C-harness had damaged wires. I paid an additional $270 to replace the harness, change out worn parts and unlock the VIN. My buddy, James, had the exact same setup and never had any issues, so I figured it might have just been my car. Bottom line, it was difficult isolate the issues with all of the hardware and software variables of a Piggyback. Mike even tried to help me figure it out even though I wasn't running his tune. The real issue was that I was never really confident that the system was behaving properly (which apparently it wasn't). I troubleshot that for about 10 months, when I eventually got tired of it and bought the BPM tune. Since then, I haven't had a single issue with the tune. Is the difference that much more noticeable in power gained, not really, but not having any lights come on and a guy that actually responds to text messages/emails/phone calls is a world of difference.

As for the dyno debate: I think its ridiculous that guys are arguing over 4-10 hp on a 400hp car. I have all the bolt on mods on my car. I have the AA catless x-pipe and BPM tune for driveability and power. I have the AA rear exhaust for sound. I bought the AFE intake for a smoother channel for the meth to flow through the intake (not a factor anymore), and I have pulleys because I was bored. My buddy, Felix, just picked up his new M3 and I told him to just buy test pipes, a tune, and tires. If I wanted to be part of the 400hp club, all I have to do is move to the east coast or buy a supercharger. I'm just happy to know that if I see another M3 on the road, I'll be just as faster or faster if he doesn't have a supercharger.

[MRSSIIM3]

Originally Posted by PIXXFLIX

Do the pulleys make a significant gain? is 400 atainable without them. (not sure if it was mentioned earlier,didnt read all the pages)

nothing in the last 4 pages is relevant to getting to 400 hp. its all arguing over dyno graphs. but if you want to learn a thing or two about dynos, read it lol

[happos2]

Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3

nothing in the last 4 pages is relevant to getting to 400 hp. its all arguing over dyno graphs. but if you want to learn a thing or two about dynos, read it lol

Agreed!!!!

And it does sound like pulleys are needed. I am by far no expert, but it seems you have to do all boltones and primary cat removal (may hi-flow cats?) just to get barely to 400 whp (pending dyno argument obviously).

But if you are worried about HP, either just supercharge it or get another car that can be a hp queen. Just modify to your taste and be happy with the power output.

[joe@trinityautosport]

I hit 400 before I went with the VF620 kit.

RPi Full GTC Exhaust
RPi Scoops
MS Pulley
MS Intake
NO TUNE

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by joe@trinityautosport

I hit 400 before I went with the VF620 kit.

RPi Full GTC Exhaust
RPi Scoops
MS Pulley
MS Intake
NO TUNE

I'm not sold that ECU tunes add much power and your dyno is a good example why. When I was NA, with no tune, during 4 dyno pulls the car had a difference of 30whp from highest to lowest, no changes to the car.

With the benefit of hindsight and a ton of comparo, 1/4 mile and 60-130 runs, if I was NA, I'd just go with an Xipe and HFC's, or catless and call it a day, I don't think the other bolt ons are worth it, just my 2 cents as I know many of you will disagree.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by joe@trinityautosport

I hit 400 before I went with the VF620 kit.

RPi Full GTC Exhaust
RPi Scoops
MS Pulley
MS Intake
NO TUNE

this is STD.... Not SAE which most everyone goes by. STD will always inflate numbers. Do you have an SAE chart of this setup?

[pbonsalb]

STD is about 2.5% less than SAE, so 403 rwhp STD is about 393 rwhp SAE. Not enough to make the real 400 rwhp club, unfortunately. Probably with a tune, it would have broken the barrier.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

STD is about 2.5% less than SAE, so 403 rwhp STD is about 393 rwhp SAE. Not enough to make the real 400 rwhp club, unfortunately. Probably with a tune, it would have broken the barrier.

Lol, or maybe one or two more dyno pulls.

[joe@trinityautosport]

SAE...guess I didn't make it...close

[Longbow64]

So can we all agree that if you have a tune, pulley, intake, and catless then you are at 400hp? There's not much more bolt on you could add. If this is not the case the the 400+ hp club is limited to SC owners. Maybe this thread should be called full bolt on club.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Lol, or maybe one or two more dyno pulls.

Everyone who has bought a $1000 tune would like to believe the tune is adding power and that any gains are not just the normal variation between dyno runs. After all, the tuners claim their tunes add 10-15 rwhp and they have presumably spent lots of time dynoing their tunes. I would like to think they would have observed what you report and would be honest about their claims.

But you have a lot of experience modding, have talked to a lot of tuner, have spent more time than most of us on dynos, and are not trying to sell anything, so your comment is interesting. My view is that these 12.0:1 compression cars are really heat and knock sensitive and tend to "lie down" when they get hot, making less power. Perhaps newer software, whether factory or aftermarket, that improves the knock control is helping the power be more consistent.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Everyone who has bought a $1000 tune would like to believe the tune is adding power and that any gains are not just the normal variation between dyno runs. After all, the tuners claim their tunes add 10-15 rwhp and they have presumably spent lots of time dynoing their tunes. I would like to think they would have observed what you report and would be honest about their claims.

Agreed, but I think 5-10 at most.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

But you have a lot of experience modding, have talked to a lot of tuner, have spent more time than most of us on dynos, and are not trying to sell anything, so your comment is interesting. My view is that these 12.0:1 compression cars are really heat and knock sensitive and tend to "lie down" when they get hot, making less power. Perhaps newer software, whether factory or aftermarket, that improves the knock control is helping the power be more consistent.

Not sure, and your point makes sense, but that's what's interesting, knowing the car would always make more power in the latter dyno runs, as much as 30whp, no changes on consecutive runs, no cool down, it would seem to me that it would be difficult to gauge that a tune truly adds any good amount of discernible power.

[nbennettksu]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Far from being a dyno queen, I might add.

Loved seeing you rip it up out there. [/QUOTE]

That video was awesome!

[Bulb]

So what kind of money would be required to bring a stock e90 to 400 rwhp? What would be the least expensive route and which would be the most reliable (if different?)

[kchu221]

Originally Posted by Bulb

So what kind of money would be required to bring a stock e90 to 400 rwhp? What would be the least expensive route and which would be the most reliable (if different?)

just run test pipes or a catless x pipe and call it a day...

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Bulb

So what kind of money would be required to bring a stock e90 to 400 rwhp? What would be the least expensive route and which would be the most reliable (if different?)

The mods people have are listed in the dynos and discussed in the posts. Start searching to learn about the parts and then contact vendors to learn about prices or search online.

[Longbow64]

Originally Posted by kchu221

just run test pipes or a catless x pipe and call it a day...

^+1. I'd recommend a tune to code out the SES light and the cold start sequence but if you're solely looking for power gains, it's not required. You'll still probably fall just short of 400hp.

[Munit]

You know I was a well documented skeptic of tunes doing anything for these cars but ended up going with an ESS tune to add to my AA xpipe/hfc and green filter and 95 octane mix as I knew the tune bumps up the timing targets a couple degrees at the very least and with running 95 I knew I would be able to take advantage of it.

I got the tune and it was seriously a big noticable difference. Never dynoed but it was not even close in terms of comparison. I am a believer and its not all about peak power. Even 10 whp through the entire band is pretty good.

The other big factor I think people neglect are changing plugs often enough. Although no documentation appears to exist, there are several documented people that experience significant increase in performance after a plug change, and myself included.

Given the plugs in this car are connected to the coils which ultimately act as the knock sensors and pull timing based on the strength of something measured by coils-whether it is resistance or what not. When plugs start to wear even slightly, I believe they start to create a difference in the current that is getting sensed by the knock sensors and timing is pulled. With fresh plugs, the car again allows hitting full timing targets.

If you really want to spend the least money and get 95 percent of the performance out of this car is getting xpipe with HFC or test pipes. A drop in filter and race fuel to mix octane up to 95, especially in summer. Otherwise you will never hit even the stock timing targets and thus never make as much power as you could. Octane is key, as preventing knock in these high compression engines is key to allowing the engine to hit its timing targets which are directly related to the power it can produce

[klammer]

Have to agree with some of the recent posts on tunes. I didn't look at tunes as a way to increase HP, but to improve drive ability and get rid of the CEL after the Evo install. The Evo and tune are all I did to increase HP and focus more on lap times than HP figures. I think the biggest issue in the Dyno world is the consistent misuse if it. It's primary use is to measure the change in numbers (ie. delta) not absolutes, so why is it constantly used as such? Rarely, I can't remember ever but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened, have I seen a Dyno used as its supposed to. Same day, same car, baseline, added mods, noted delta. Forget SAE, STD, uncorrected. Show us the delta, or better yet, even theta of these mods, or the gamma, or any other greek letter i can think of, anything but the way it's being used. Maybe one day we'll get there... As you were