e92 M3 vs. 996 Turbo

Schn3ll · 08-28-2008, 10:54 AM

Hey guys, first post here and I have a dilemma...

I just sold my 2002 M3...awesome car and will be missed and right now I am using my DD (company vehicle) exclusively. I am now looking for a new weekend car and I had thought that the new M3 would fit the bill nicely but then I started looking at other cars in the price / performance range and started to look heavily at a 996 turbo. I also have been looking at Lotus Exige's but thats another story...

Anyway I wanted to see the opinions on the Turbo vs. e92, and please don't tell me about RMS failures on the Turbo because it does not use the same crappy block as the base 911's and is an extremely solidly built drivetrain. Reliability has yet to be determined for the e92's.

Pros of the e92: New car, new technology, good engine, 4 year warranty, I am familiar with my local dealer and they bend over backwards for me, daily driver capabilities, new car smell...

Cons of the e92: good not great tranny (not interested in DCT), styling is hit or miss, heavy car, limited performance upgrade capability

Pros of the Turbo: its a P-car, transmission and engine, easily modified (many options), lighter, dry sump lubrication (easily tracked with no issues), awd (but not necessarily needed)

Cons of the Turbo: its a P-car (unwanted attention / stigma's), no warranty, older car, antiquated technology, less interior room, potenial money pit...

So that is my dilemma, anyone with experience with these cars please chime in, TIA!

!Xoible · 08-28-2008, 10:56 AM

turbo pcar FTW, why are u even asking?

08M3 · 08-28-2008, 11:44 AM

go with the pcar. I'm not that happy with the new M3.

TLud · 08-28-2008, 11:45 AM

Schn3ll, this is an interesting post because I considered the same two cars (in addition to a few others). The 996TT has really come down in price recently (although the best specimens are still difficult to find and priced a little higher). The 996TT is surprisingly comfortable as a daily driver, yet offers tons of fun on tap at all times. Also, if you don't need the extra practicality of the E92 (and it sounds like you don't since you have a work vehicle), then that issue shouldn't be a concern.

The only question in my mind, and it's a big one, is whether not having a warranty is a deal killer for you. Even with a low-mileage unit, it's a big gamble because P-car repairs are not cheap. Still, if you've got a good local shop who can check the car out up front (this would make it difficult to buy a car outside your local area), and who can take care of you as repair issues arise, you should be pretty well covered. The engine is not what I would be worried about on the 996TT, it's all the other niggling little things that will go wrong. If you're cool with the slightly higher risk, I'd take the Porsche hands down.

In my case, it's not so much the money cost of repairs, it's the time and hassle. This car will be my daily driver, and my minimal free time is very precious to me. I don't want to have to worry about taking a car into the shop, and thanks to a lack of driveway space, I won't have a backup vehicle to drive around.

Schn3ll · 08-28-2008, 12:30 PM

Thanks for the responses guys, it just seems that recent trends for the 996 Turbo market has the price hovering right around the new M3, and although the 996 is probably the least desired of all the 911 body styles I think it is / will be more classic than the e92. I have been frequenting Porsche forums and I tend to agree with what TLud says, its not the powertrain that will cause any issues (aside from maybe a 2nd gear popout issue, most cars have had this resolved anyway), its the smaller items. I would most likely modify either car and the pricing for adding hp for the turbo is relatively cheap compared to the M3 (i.e. chip, exhaust)... I live within 5 miles of either dealer and tons of German car shops, so no issues finding a place to go for service either.

swamp2 · 08-28-2008, 12:52 PM

It is a good and tough decision to have to make between two great cars.

Not sure why dry sump is a big factor. The M3 has a very advanced lubrication system with multiple pumps and can operate above 1g all day long. Also, not sure why you consider the AWD a big advantage. Better for street or strip launches but not the best for track and weight (which you mention).

!Xoible · 08-28-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

It is a good and tough decision to have to make between two great cars.

Not sure why dry sump is a big factor. The M3 has a very advanced lubrication system with multiple pumps and can operate above 1g all day long. Also, not sure why you consider the AWD a big advantage. Better for street or strip launches but not the best for track and weight (which you mention).

in this particular case AWD still handles better for track. launches u might be right.

u really love the m3 huh?

Schn3ll · 08-28-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

It is a good and tough decision to have to make between two great cars.

Not sure why dry sump is a big factor. The M3 has a very advanced lubrication system with multiple pumps and can operate above 1g all day long. Also, not sure why you consider the AWD a big advantage. Better for street or strip launches but not the best for track and weight (which you mention).

Dry sump is only a factor when comparing the turbo to a base 911 (non GT2, 3), the base models use a completely different engine and a wet sump lubrication system, I only stated that because I intend to track it and without the dry sump the 911's have a tendency for an RMS failure (I would never track a base model or S model!!!). And hence the reason a crate 911 turbo engine is 40k compared to a 911 S engine for 10k. AWD is nice but it is also very common to see the front drivetrain removed in a 911 turbo (very easy process) for weight reduction and driving dynamics.

swamp2 · 08-28-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

in this particular case AWD still handles better for track. launches u might be right.

u really love the m3 huh?

See the post directly below yours!

Sure I like the M3, why else would I spend so much time here. It is not for socializing for me.

sayemthree · 08-28-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schn3ll

Hey guys, first post here and I have a dilemma...

I just sold my 2002 M3...awesome car and will be missed and right now I am using my DD (company vehicle) exclusively. I am now looking for a new weekend car and I had thought that the new M3 would fit the bill nicely but then I started looking at other cars in the price / performance range and started to look heavily at a 996 turbo. I also have been looking at Lotus Exige's but thats another story...

Anyway I wanted to see the opinions on the Turbo vs. e92, and please don't tell me about RMS failures on the Turbo because it does not use the same crappy block as the base 911's and is an extremely solidly built drivetrain. Reliability has yet to be determined for the e92's.

Pros of the e92: New car, new technology, good engine, 4 year warranty, I am familiar with my local dealer and they bend over backwards for me, daily driver capabilities, new car smell...

Cons of the e92: good not great tranny (not interested in DCT), styling is hit or miss, heavy car, limited performance upgrade capability

Pros of the Turbo: its a P-car, transmission and engine, easily modified (many options), lighter, dry sump lubrication (easily tracked with no issues), awd (but not necessarily needed)

Cons of the Turbo: its a P-car (unwanted attention / stigma's), no warranty, older car, antiquated technology, less interior room, potenial money pit...

So that is my dilemma, anyone with experience with these cars please chime in, TIA!

check out the maint costs on a used P car!!!!!

!Xoible · 08-28-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

See the post directly below yours!

Sure I like the M3, why else would I spend so much time here. It is not for socializing for me.

i'd argue ur the most M3 enthusiasts on M3post man

i love the car... i just know there's better out there. good attitude man

08M3 · 08-28-2008, 02:46 PM

Before you make the choice if your looking for a good track car than yes consider the M3. I tracked my E92 and that changed alot of my opinion's about the car, what I don't like is that the car feels soft/heavy during daily use compared to a 996 turbo or even previous M3. A 996 feels a bit rough/aggresive, the old E46 M used to have that feeling and it's lost with the new design that's what I miss. I do think that with a little tuning the E92 M would give the 996tt a good run on the track. Either way you can't go wrong they are both extremly well built cars, but remember the E92 M changes alot at the track that might suprise you.

gorun · 08-29-2008, 01:10 AM

Go for the M3. I drove a friend's 997 tt auto and hated it. It was very laggy (feeling was multiplied by the ancient auto box), the ride was poor compared to my E92 M3. Overall the car is very unresponsive, the steering wheel is horrible, it is noisy inside (not in a good way), your head hurts all day after half an hour of driving it. My friend hated it too and got rid of it after 3 weeks of ownership. I'm talking 997 here, 996 has the interior of a Lada and is significantly slower (not to the Lada of course). Nuff said

Gearhead999s · 08-29-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 08M3

Before you make the choice if your looking for a good track car than yes consider the M3. I tracked my E92 and that changed alot of my opinion's about the car, what I don't like is that the car feels soft/heavy during daily use compared to a 996 turbo or even previous M3. A 996 feels a bit rough/aggresive, the old E46 M used to have that feeling and it's lost with the new design that's what I miss. I do think that with a little tuning the E92 M would give the 996tt a good run on the track. Either way you can't go wrong they are both extremly well built cars, but remember the E92 M changes alot at the track that might suprise you.

Where you at Mosport on Wednesday?

footie · 08-29-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorun

it is noisy inside (not in a good way), your head hurts all day after half an hour of driving it. My friend hated it too and got rid of it after 3 weeks of ownership.

Anyone who has owned a Porsche will know what you are saying and I for one agree whole heartedly, their give you a headache if driven for any length of time.

Captain Scott · 08-29-2008, 07:49 AM

Good morning, I can talk from experience as I have owned both a new (01) 996 and a new (07) 997 twin turbo. Simply put these are two of the best cars I have ever driven, both on the track and the street.

Although I only had my new (08) M3 for 12 hours, and now waiting for my (09) to get here, I can tell you after driving all three,there is no comparison IMHO between the cars. I wish I still had my Porsche.

You may wonder then, why is it that I am still getting a new M3 and not another 997. I will tell you!

For the money you can't beat the BMW, It's almost half the price of the Porsche, and after the break-in period I am sure the M3 will be almost as fun to drive. I took the extra money I got when I traded for the M3 and paid for my sons college with it. Value for the money.

IMO If I had the choice between a used 996 / 997 twin turbo, or a new M3, I would take the M3 as the Porsche will take a lot of money to fix should something go wrong. If were talking new, I would take the Porsche hands down.

Just my 2 cents.
Scott

Schn3ll · 08-29-2008, 09:12 AM

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it!

Scott, did your 2001 996 turbo fall out of warranty while in your possesion? That seems to be the real sticking factor for me as I do not want this car to become a money pit with out of warranty repairs.

As far as noise / comfort is concerned, I also mentioned in my first post that I am cross-shopping a Lotus Exige... that should tell you what my thoughts are on comfort (it is probably the least of my worries for a sports car)

and again this is not a DD so the longest stints I would drive it would be an hour at a time.

Captain Scott · 08-29-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schn3ll

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it!

Scott, did your 2001 996 turbo fall out of warranty while in your possesion? That seems to be the real sticking factor for me as I do not want this car to become a money pit with out of warranty repairs.

As far as noise / comfort is concerned, I also mentioned in my first post that I am cross-shopping a Lotus Exige... that should tell you what my thoughts are on comfort (it is probably the least of my worries for a sports car)

and again this is not a DD so the longest stints I would drive it would be an hour at a time.

PM me if you want, I will give you my number and we can shoot the shit about all the cars. I can also give you input about Lotus cars as I had a brand new Turbo Esprit. Sexiest car I ever owned but when I found out it costs 10 grand to change the timing chain I said oh oh

you get my point? I might be dumb, but not stupid.

Scott

BRDHNTR · 08-29-2008, 10:06 AM

If you want 500+hp, then the Porsche is the only option b/c that can be done with a chip. The engine is bulletproof and will take that punishment, but lots of little crap breaks of Porsches and they are typically expensive repairs. If that isn't an issue, go that route. I love that Turbos have AWD, it gives the car added stability on the road when conditions aren't great. If you want RWD, don't convert a Turbo, buy a GT3 or M3.

If you are happy with 450hp and want something more reliable the M3 is a better option. The only other advantage in my opinion to the M3 is the added cargo room.

I like many of people looked at the 996TT as I looked at the M3, and in the end I just couldn't pull the trigger on the Porsche. Maybe my next car will be a Porsche, but who knows.

Captain Scott · 08-29-2008, 10:23 AM

I forgot to tell you something, If you do decide to go the Porsche route, make sure you bring it to a Porsche dealer and have them run a check on the computer in the car.

That can tell you (everything) how that car has been treated from day 1 of use. The computer in that car is amazing, The only thing it will not tattle on is how many time's the owner has been laid by driving the car.

Get the hint?

Feel free to call

Schn3ll · 08-29-2008, 11:26 AM

Hey Scott, thanks again, I may take you up on that offer this weekend... And yes I wouldn't think about a turbo with out a PPI and check on the over-revs. I'll be sure to update everyone with what I eventually do, no real hurry but probably going to pull the trigger within a month...

-Chris

devo · 08-29-2008, 02:20 PM

You can steal some low mileage 996tts right now. I'd go for a 2003 or later and look for x50 package. They are out there. Just be sure to have the VIN run through Porsche of North America. Porsche will tell you if there are any open recalls or reported issues with the car. Ask for the originating dealer and in service date. Then call the dealer that sold the car and ask the service manager to look up their internal file. Sometimes issues are not officially recorded so a simple VIN check will not reveal them.

I would also do a Carfax check in your name. Carfax is okay, but I wouldn 't rely on this entirely. Be careful of second gear syncro issues with some of the 996 turbos. And, obviously have the Porsche dealer run a diagnostic test to search out any recorded over revs and ask what "type" they are. Even if the car is under warranty and the previous owner had the wrong type of over rev, your warranty could very well be in jeopardy.

You should be able to find the right low mileage car for 45-50% off MSRP. MY2005's carry a better residual because they are all TTS' and have X50 and PCCBs. They were also produced in low numbers, so expect to pay in the $90s for one.

08-28-2008, 10:54 AM	#1
Schn3ll Captain 458 Rep 733 Posts Drives: '24 Carrera T Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Greenville, SC iTrader: (3) Garage List 2009 135 [0.00]	e92 M3 vs. 996 Turbo Hey guys, first post here and I have a dilemma... I just sold my 2002 M3...awesome car and will be missed and right now I am using my DD (company vehicle) exclusively. I am now looking for a new weekend car and I had thought that the new M3 would fit the bill nicely but then I started looking at other cars in the price / performance range and started to look heavily at a 996 turbo. I also have been looking at Lotus Exige's but thats another story... Anyway I wanted to see the opinions on the Turbo vs. e92, and please don't tell me about RMS failures on the Turbo because it does not use the same crappy block as the base 911's and is an extremely solidly built drivetrain. Reliability has yet to be determined for the e92's. Pros of the e92: New car, new technology, good engine, 4 year warranty, I am familiar with my local dealer and they bend over backwards for me, daily driver capabilities, new car smell... Cons of the e92: good not great tranny (not interested in DCT), styling is hit or miss, heavy car, limited performance upgrade capability Pros of the Turbo: its a P-car, transmission and engine, easily modified (many options), lighter, dry sump lubrication (easily tracked with no issues), awd (but not necessarily needed) Cons of the Turbo: its a P-car (unwanted attention / stigma's), no warranty, older car, antiquated technology, less interior room, potenial money pit... So that is my dilemma, anyone with experience with these cars please chime in, TIA!
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08-28-2008, 10:56 AM	#2
!Xoible Banned 832 Rep 46,029 Posts Drives: .... Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: . iTrader: (4) Garage List 2008 M3 [4.00] 2007 335i [9.00] 2008 528i [8.00] 2006 Infiniti - G35 ... [8.00]	turbo pcar FTW, why are u even asking?
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08-28-2008, 11:44 AM	#3
08M3 MY 4TH M 10 Rep 204 Posts Drives: 08M3 AW Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Toronto iTrader: (2)	go with the pcar. I'm not that happy with the new M3.
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08-28-2008, 11:45 AM	#4
TLud Colonel 108 Rep 2,279 Posts Drives: '12 Golf R Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Texas iTrader: (3)	Schn3ll, this is an interesting post because I considered the same two cars (in addition to a few others). The 996TT has really come down in price recently (although the best specimens are still difficult to find and priced a little higher). The 996TT is surprisingly comfortable as a daily driver, yet offers tons of fun on tap at all times. Also, if you don't need the extra practicality of the E92 (and it sounds like you don't since you have a work vehicle), then that issue shouldn't be a concern. The only question in my mind, and it's a big one, is whether not having a warranty is a deal killer for you. Even with a low-mileage unit, it's a big gamble because P-car repairs are not cheap. Still, if you've got a good local shop who can check the car out up front (this would make it difficult to buy a car outside your local area), and who can take care of you as repair issues arise, you should be pretty well covered. The engine is not what I would be worried about on the 996TT, it's all the other niggling little things that will go wrong. If you're cool with the slightly higher risk, I'd take the Porsche hands down. In my case, it's not so much the money cost of repairs, it's the time and hassle. This car will be my daily driver, and my minimal free time is very precious to me. I don't want to have to worry about taking a car into the shop, and thanks to a lack of driveway space, I won't have a backup vehicle to drive around.
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08-28-2008, 12:30 PM	#5
Schn3ll Captain 458 Rep 733 Posts Drives: '24 Carrera T Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Greenville, SC iTrader: (3) Garage List 2009 135 [0.00]	Thanks for the responses guys, it just seems that recent trends for the 996 Turbo market has the price hovering right around the new M3, and although the 996 is probably the least desired of all the 911 body styles I think it is / will be more classic than the e92. I have been frequenting Porsche forums and I tend to agree with what TLud says, its not the powertrain that will cause any issues (aside from maybe a 2nd gear popout issue, most cars have had this resolved anyway), its the smaller items. I would most likely modify either car and the pricing for adding hp for the turbo is relatively cheap compared to the M3 (i.e. chip, exhaust)... I live within 5 miles of either dealer and tons of German car shops, so no issues finding a place to go for service either.
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08-28-2008, 12:52 PM	#6
swamp2 Lieutenant General 611 Rep 10,407 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Diego, CA USA iTrader: (3)	It is a good and tough decision to have to make between two great cars. Not sure why dry sump is a big factor. The M3 has a very advanced lubrication system with multiple pumps and can operate above 1g all day long. Also, not sure why you consider the AWD a big advantage. Better for street or strip launches but not the best for track and weight (which you mention).
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08-28-2008, 02:46 PM	#12
08M3 MY 4TH M 10 Rep 204 Posts Drives: 08M3 AW Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Toronto iTrader: (2)	Before you make the choice if your looking for a good track car than yes consider the M3. I tracked my E92 and that changed alot of my opinion's about the car, what I don't like is that the car feels soft/heavy during daily use compared to a 996 turbo or even previous M3. A 996 feels a bit rough/aggresive, the old E46 M used to have that feeling and it's lost with the new design that's what I miss. I do think that with a little tuning the E92 M would give the 996tt a good run on the track. Either way you can't go wrong they are both extremly well built cars, but remember the E92 M changes alot at the track that might suprise you.
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08-29-2008, 01:10 AM	#13
gorun Lieutenant 46 Rep 528 Posts Drives: W166 ML63 PP Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Where the roads are crap... iTrader: (0)	Go for the M3. I drove a friend's 997 tt auto and hated it. It was very laggy (feeling was multiplied by the ancient auto box), the ride was poor compared to my E92 M3. Overall the car is very unresponsive, the steering wheel is horrible, it is noisy inside (not in a good way), your head hurts all day after half an hour of driving it. My friend hated it too and got rid of it after 3 weeks of ownership. I'm talking 997 here, 996 has the interior of a Lada and is significantly slower (not to the Lada of course). Nuff said
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08-29-2008, 07:49 AM	#16
Captain Scott Second Lieutenant 4 Rep 251 Posts Drives: 09 E92 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: St Paul MN iTrader: (0)	Good morning, I can talk from experience as I have owned both a new (01) 996 and a new (07) 997 twin turbo. Simply put these are two of the best cars I have ever driven, both on the track and the street. Although I only had my new (08) M3 for 12 hours, and now waiting for my (09) to get here, I can tell you after driving all three,there is no comparison IMHO between the cars. I wish I still had my Porsche. You may wonder then, why is it that I am still getting a new M3 and not another 997. I will tell you! For the money you can't beat the BMW, It's almost half the price of the Porsche, and after the break-in period I am sure the M3 will be almost as fun to drive. I took the extra money I got when I traded for the M3 and paid for my sons college with it. Value for the money. IMO If I had the choice between a used 996 / 997 twin turbo, or a new M3, I would take the M3 as the Porsche will take a lot of money to fix should something go wrong. If were talking new, I would take the Porsche hands down. Just my 2 cents. Scott
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08-29-2008, 09:12 AM	#17
Schn3ll Captain 458 Rep 733 Posts Drives: '24 Carrera T Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Greenville, SC iTrader: (3) Garage List 2009 135 [0.00]	Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it! Scott, did your 2001 996 turbo fall out of warranty while in your possesion? That seems to be the real sticking factor for me as I do not want this car to become a money pit with out of warranty repairs. As far as noise / comfort is concerned, I also mentioned in my first post that I am cross-shopping a Lotus Exige... that should tell you what my thoughts are on comfort (it is probably the least of my worries for a sports car) and again this is not a DD so the longest stints I would drive it would be an hour at a time.
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08-29-2008, 10:06 AM	#19
BRDHNTR Ground Pilot 41 Rep 548 Posts Drives: e92 BMW M3 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Waverly, PA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2002 M3 [0.00] 2008 e92 M3 [0.00]	If you want 500+hp, then the Porsche is the only option b/c that can be done with a chip. The engine is bulletproof and will take that punishment, but lots of little crap breaks of Porsches and they are typically expensive repairs. If that isn't an issue, go that route. I love that Turbos have AWD, it gives the car added stability on the road when conditions aren't great. If you want RWD, don't convert a Turbo, buy a GT3 or M3. If you are happy with 450hp and want something more reliable the M3 is a better option. The only other advantage in my opinion to the M3 is the added cargo room. I like many of people looked at the 996TT as I looked at the M3, and in the end I just couldn't pull the trigger on the Porsche. Maybe my next car will be a Porsche, but who knows. __________________ "The laws of physics cannot be repealed, even with DSC." - BMW Owner's Manual
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08-29-2008, 10:23 AM	#20
Captain Scott Second Lieutenant 4 Rep 251 Posts Drives: 09 E92 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: St Paul MN iTrader: (0)	I forgot to tell you something, If you do decide to go the Porsche route, make sure you bring it to a Porsche dealer and have them run a check on the computer in the car. That can tell you (everything) how that car has been treated from day 1 of use. The computer in that car is amazing, The only thing it will not tattle on is how many time's the owner has been laid by driving the car. Get the hint? Feel free to call
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08-29-2008, 11:26 AM	#21
Schn3ll Captain 458 Rep 733 Posts Drives: '24 Carrera T Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Greenville, SC iTrader: (3) Garage List 2009 135 [0.00]	Hey Scott, thanks again, I may take you up on that offer this weekend... And yes I wouldn't think about a turbo with out a PPI and check on the over-revs. I'll be sure to update everyone with what I eventually do, no real hurry but probably going to pull the trigger within a month... -Chris
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08-29-2008, 02:20 PM	#22
devo Colonel 755 Rep 2,736 Posts Drives: Bimmers & Porsches Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Atlanta iTrader: (0)	You can steal some low mileage 996tts right now. I'd go for a 2003 or later and look for x50 package. They are out there. Just be sure to have the VIN run through Porsche of North America. Porsche will tell you if there are any open recalls or reported issues with the car. Ask for the originating dealer and in service date. Then call the dealer that sold the car and ask the service manager to look up their internal file. Sometimes issues are not officially recorded so a simple VIN check will not reveal them. I would also do a Carfax check in your name. Carfax is okay, but I wouldn 't rely on this entirely. Be careful of second gear syncro issues with some of the 996 turbos. And, obviously have the Porsche dealer run a diagnostic test to search out any recorded over revs and ask what "type" they are. Even if the car is under warranty and the previous owner had the wrong type of over rev, your warranty could very well be in jeopardy. You should be able to find the right low mileage car for 45-50% off MSRP. MY2005's carry a better residual because they are all TTS' and have X50 and PCCBs. They were also produced in low numbers, so expect to pay in the $90s for one.
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