Saying Hello!

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by southlight

I have admitted that I'm preferring MT, yes I do that intentionally. You summed up my points really good. I'll give it another try, though:
1. Yes, I like MT and that's what I'm preferring 'cause it makes (more) fun.
2. Yes, it's the harder way compared to a DCT.
3. Yes, I go to MackieD, use PCs and Calculators; no, I'm not hunting.
4. Is that inconsistent or hypocritical? Yes and No. YES, if you think one has either to adopt every kind of technological achievement or no technogical achievement at all. IMHO NO, that's my point! There may be things that are worth to be done the hard way. For me thats shifting manually, since it doesn't mean much effort. For me it doesn't mean much disadvantage over DCT. So, yes, I'm doing that one thing the hard way. Do I have to do all things the hard way? No, only things that worth to be done such.
Examples:
Do I go hunting? No, too much effort.
Do I my math "mentally"? Sometimes, but not when the result really "counts". (So you could compare that with DCT: Would best possible track time all I'm after, I had to choose DCT)
Do I heat with wood? Well, sometimes (wouldn't that be totally useless also, why doing that if there's the technogical leap of gas supply). It's like hunting. Most people don't use it to heat (meaning the house stays cold if they don't), but sometimes they use it to get that special feeling/ambience, hence it's more fun which is worth more effort made.
Do I play music with 2 decks and a mixer? Yes (WTF, how can I do that?) There are countless music programs out there which do all that stuff automatically. Just tell it what you want to listen to, do a playlist, the program does the beatmatching and all the other stuff. But it's not the same. Yeah, it's considerably more effort needed to beatmatch manually with two decks, but hey it's so much fun and as a hobby worth the effort.
So call that incosistent if you want. For me it's not, it's the conscious decision to adopt or not to adopt technological achievements. Some things are worth to be done the hard way (really like that term), some not.

Last I have to remark: Assuming (obviously not my opinion, only assuming) you're right about the incosistence, then why do it the hard way and use the paddles on your DCT equipped car. You can't shift in the perfect moment (meaning you're always some tenths too late or too early on the paddle), the computer does that for you. So why that effort? That's incosistent. You would insist on doing it the hard way. Only way to evade that inconsistence would be to demount the paddles. Think about it...


Best regards, south

You're absolutely correct. I agree with what you have said. You are choosing to do certain things the hard way, but not others. I understand we must face this given modern society. Because you don't have the time to hunt, you will cling to the certain things you can still have time to do yourself (manual). I said that is fine. I also then said you should at least ADMIT to yourself that you miss hunting. You can't reasonably hunt, but you should agree with the principle that if you had the time, you should be hunting. So for those tasks which you don't reasonably have the time to do the 'hard way,' you should ADMIT that you wish you could do them the 'hard way,' but you don't have the time. As for other small tasks that you still do have time to do the hard way in modern society, you should be doing all of them the hard way since you manually shift the hard way. Therefore, if you admit you would hunt if you had the time, and you physically do everything else the hard way, which you do have time for, then I'd call that consistent.

Technically, you could go live in the wilderness and be a hunter-gatherer. (which is why I cited Ted Kaczynski, who did just that). I'm just trying to show you that you are picking and choosing what to do the hard way, and what to allow technology to do for you. I call that fundamentally inconsistent. You call it choice. I say you're choosing to be inconsistent. If that makes you the most happy then good for you. You could still just admit that you're being inconsistent tho. Just be honest with yourself. I am inconsistent as well. But I'm not gonna lie to myself and pretend I'm being consistent.

btw, what you say about putting the DCT in auto mode is correct. I agree it would be just as stupid to hit a paddle to feel good about yourself when the DCT auto mode could have done it better. On the other hand, DCT in auto mode is like a one track mind. Its either gonna shift at redline or shift like a vagina. Therefore you have something to gain by controlling it with a paddle. The gain is the flexibility in choosing when to shift early (conserve gas), and when to shift late (power). You can't keep switching the DCT mode every stoplight depending on your mood. DCT auto mode would have to be able to read your mind before it would become dumb to hit paddles yourself. Once it can read my mind and guess exactly when I want to shift, yes I would stop hitting the paddles unnecessarily. Your thinking, I agree with in general. You just missed this little quirk.

Anyway, I think we agree in principle overall.

What I think is more interesting tho is the question I keep asking but nobody responds to. That once a manual becomes an intentional self-inflicted challenge(which is no longer a legitimate challenge since DCT exists), that it may no longer allow you to be proud of yourself when executed. Why? Because you self-imposed the challenge, you are intentionally trying to trick yourself into feeling pride, and once you realize that, it sorta detracts from the ability to actually feel that pride. Shifting manually creates genuine pride right now because there is nothing better than it. Now there is DCT. Seems like you should just feel silly for intentionally creating a challenge for yourself to conquer. Its like ally ooping to yourself. You're just trying to set yourself up for the slam dunk. I dont think the dunk would be satisfying anymore when I realize that I intentionally set myself up just to feel good about myself when executed.

Its really quite humorous and interesting to think about this question. Obviously you're under no obligation to think about it. If you do tho, I think you begin to realize how silly you are for intentionally handicapping yourself with a challenge you know you can accomplish, just to make yourself proud. It rather silly.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear a person's answer to this question. I'm not sure what I think. I think on a daily basis I'd still feel pride in my mad manual skillz. But then whenever I'd truly think about the fact that I'm intentionally setting myself up to feel pride, I'd feel stupid for a moment. Then I'd go back to being a super proud manual master. I'm just pointing out how fruitless this pride becomes when manually shifting is no longer a genuine challenge.

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Yes, this thread is absurd, not to mention wildly OT.

The question is, why do you care?

A better question is, why are you a hypocrite?

Why you ask?
Just yesterday, you posted a random article (some would call it "absurd") about an E46 M3 crashing into a house - in the E92 M3 forum! Thats right, posted an E46 topic in the E92 forum.

Once you can explain to me how that is not off topic, but this thread is, I would be happy to retract my hypocrite insult.

Since we both know you can't explain it, we'll just agree that you are a hypocrite.

Hypocrite or not, if you don't like a thread, don't read it. The End.

[Champagne]

I love cars, all of them... When I go to heaven... While most of the population will ride on clouds, I'll ride ferrari's and bugattis.

A part of this car obsession of mine is mastering the cars. Therefore I wouldn't be anywhere near a master (which I'm far from... yet...), unless I could drive ALL cars insanely well.

And your "consistency-theory" is just weird IMO... In other words what you are saying is that if your first answer to a question is yes, you have to say yes to everything... Otherwise you are "inconsistent". I mean... You can break anything down into any branch and continue on and on and on without finding out the true reason for our doings. From my point of view we are not seeing eye-to-eye. I understand and accept your theories, but I don't adopt them for my scenario. I believe my reason for MT has something to do with car obsession and being engaged in what I love.

It's nice to see that you've changed some strong words out... What before was "hypocritical" is now "consistent". I'm not flaming you, I'm thanking you is more like it.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by chitown08

The question is, why do you care?

A better question is, why are you a hypocrite?

Why you ask?
Just yesterday, you posted a random article (some would call it "absurd") about an E46 M3 crashing into a house - in the E92 M3 forum! Thats right, posted an E46 topic in the E92 forum.

Once you can explain to me how that is not off topic, but this thread is, I would be happy to retract my hypocrite insult.

Since we both know you can't explain it, we'll just agree that you are a hypocrite.

Hypocrite or not, if you don't like a thread, don't read it. The End.

Where did all this agression come from? You are getting way to heated.
Way to resort to name calling as well - your post is ridiculous and so full of holes.

Did you even read what I posted? It said a brand new M3. Never said an E46 M3.
Basically, you put words into the story to fit your argument then tried to blast me for them. How retarded is that?
Please show me these people who would call that post absurd. It's funny that you found that post SO absurd you had to post in that thread:

Originally Posted by chitown08

seriously, only in America would you be concerned over the intersection instead of the drunk drivers and reckless teens...

So will his insurance replace with a new E92 M3 then?

if so, good deal. everyone crash their cars

Also, you can stop throwing hypocrite around as the new buzz word.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by chitown08

What I think is more interesting tho is the question I keep asking but nobody responds to. That once a manual becomes an intentional self-inflicted challenge(which is no longer a legitimate challenge since DCT exists), that it may no longer allow you to be proud of yourself when executed. Why? Because you self-imposed the challenge, you are intentionally trying to trick yourself into feeling pride, and once you realize that, it sorta detracts from the ability to actually feel that pride. Shifting manually creates genuine pride right now because there is nothing better than it. Now there is DCT. Seems like you should just feel silly for intentionally creating a challenge for yourself to conquer. Its like ally ooping to yourself. You're just trying to set yourself up for the slam dunk. I dont think the dunk would be satisfying anymore when I realize that I intentionally set myself up just to feel good about myself when executed.

Its really quite humorous and interesting to think about this question. Obviously you're under no obligation to think about it. If you do tho, I think you begin to realize how silly you are for intentionally handicapping yourself with a challenge you know you can accomplish, just to make yourself proud. It rather silly.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear a person's answer to this question. I'm not sure what I think. I think on a daily basis I'd still feel pride in my mad manual skillz. But then whenever I'd truly think about the fact that I'm intentionally setting myself up to feel pride, I'd feel stupid for a moment. Then I'd go back to being a super proud manual master. I'm just pointing out how fruitless this pride becomes when manually shifting is no longer a genuine challenge.

I think it doesn't have much relevance if the "challenge" is self-inflicted or not. We're resolving challenges and are happy/enjoy it when we've coped these things ("pride" is too much for that feeling IMO). It's not the point if these things are necessary or if anybody else has done that before. We want to manage it and we're happy when it works. Just that simple. Your theory about being pride and then feeling silly because of having tricked oneself would require a kind of Homer-Simpson-mentality (think of the episode in NY. Homer starts driving his car which still has a wheel clamp on it: With every round of the wheel: YES(driving)....NO(bonk).....YES....NO...). But you know that it's self-inflicted all the time, you know what you're doing, you know why you're doing so and you know that it's not necessary. Maybe that's even part of the fun. Nobody will do that in the intention of managing a genuine challenge. Conquer a mountain if you're searching for such a challenge.

Originally Posted by chitown08

Anyway, I think we agree in principle overall.

A good close.


Best regards, south

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Davo2003

I read alot of this thread, but Jesus, not everything.

Personally, I like MT but I don't blame people for wanting DCT. I've driven a paddle shift BMW, hated it. With an MT I feel connected to the road, one with the car, I feel the road, can sense the shift points easily and tell you what RPM I am pushing in what gear etc. I also have a much easier time on twisting roads, curves etc with MT. Plus since the MT makes me feel one with the car and one with the road, in turn I am feeling one with the universe and am eligible to be a Tibetan monk. Wax on wax off.

Just to clarify: The only paddle shifting BMW that anyone outside of BMW has driven are true automatics with paddles and various generations of SMG. They drive and behave VERY differently. A DCT unit (with paddles again) will be quite a different beast from these other two, offering many key benefits of each as well as eliminating many drawbacks of each. Judging DCT by either an AT+paddles or by SMG is immensely short sighted! If you get a chance I would encourage you to read more about the Audi/VW/Mitsubishi DSGs and test drive a BMW M-DCT if possible.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by southlight

Last I have to remark: Assuming (obviously not my opinion, only assuming) you're right about the incosistence, then why do it the hard way and use the paddles on your DCT equipped car. You can't shift in the perfect moment (meaning you're always some tenths too late or too early on the paddle), the computer does that for you. So why that effort? That's incosistent. You would insist on doing it the hard way. Only way to evade that inconsistence would be to demount the paddles. Think about it.

Good point South. To re-state, your point is that using Chitowns line of reasoning one should only use the full automatic mode of DCT rather than ever use the MT mode and shift via paddles or the lever. This is a good counterpoint. What the paddles represent are three things:

1. Definite remnants of the "I still want to challenge myself" motif. Indeed if you agree with Chitown you could be seen as being a bit inconsistent here. BUT, this assumes a key thing (see immediate next point).
2. Automatic mode for DCT: Although likely to be really really good and plenty good enough that most of us could not get a better track time or twisty canyon time in manual mode, still may have some annoying flaws, bugs, minor drawbacks that are easily overcome by using manual mode. Here it would be entirely "consistent" to use the slightly harder or more challenging manual mode. I'd bet BMW does not feel M-DCT in auto mode is quite good enough to entirely remove the human from all shift decisions, I'd agree with that.
3. Alignment of our egos with the heros of our industry: Many racers nowadays shift with paddles. We simply want to do the same and have the same experience. Inconsistent?, perhaps a bit.

[gasman]

[QUOTE=chitown08;1762925]dude are you kidding me?


AND, if you really are so anti-progress and pro-traditionalism, then why don't you live in a hut you build with sticks, hunt for your food (no guns!), rub sticks together for a fire, wear a bearskin that you skinned with a knife you made!, and gather berries.
I'm sure starting a fire with your own hands when it was 10 degrees outside was pretty fuckin rewarding back in the day. Last time I checked we love our matches today.

If you ski, I hope you ski to your hut with straight skis- make that wooden skis since you are anti-innovation (composite skis). And once there, you grab some sticks and get rubbin.



THat's is hilarious. Not being his Chitown's sidekick..but that was damn funny!

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Where did all this agression come from? You are getting way to heated.
Way to resort to name calling as well - your post is ridiculous and so full of holes.

Did you even read what I posted? It said a brand new M3. Never said an E46 M3.Basically, you put words into the story to fit your argument then tried to blast me for them. How retarded is that?
Please show me these people who would call that post absurd. It's funny that you found that post SO absurd you had to post in that thread:




Also, you can stop throwing hypocrite around as the new buzz word.

hahaha. You posted about an E46 M3! Whether it was implicit or explicit, you posted about an E46 in the E92 forum! That is, by definition, OFF TOPIC.

Who cares whether you said E46 or "brand new" M3. It's about an E46, and you posted it in the E92 section!

I can't believe you actually tried defending yourself. what a joke.

And yes I posted in response to your OFF TOPIC E46 post. I happen to not freak out about off topic threads. You, on the other hand, needlessly insulted this 'supposed' offtopic thread. I'd have no reason to insult you if there wasn't such a glaring hypocrisy in your insult. To insult an 'offtopic' thread when you are posting 'offtopic' threads is hilarious.

Accept it. You posted off topic, and now you're criticizing off topic threads. That is, again, by definition, a 'hypocrite.'

Everyone knows your main 'contribution' to M3post is to insult people. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Good point South. To re-state, your point is that using Chitowns line of reasoning one should only use the full automatic mode of DCT rather than ever use the MT mode and shift via paddles or the lever. This is a good counterpoint. What the paddles represent are three things:

1. Definite remnants of the "I still want to challenge myself" motif. Indeed if you agree with Chitown you could be seen as being a bit inconsistent here. BUT, this assumes a key thing (see immediate next point).
2. Automatic mode for DCT: Although likely to be really really good and plenty good enough that most of us could not get a better track time or twisty canyon time in manual mode, still may have some annoying flaws, bugs, minor drawbacks that are easily overcome by using manual mode. Here it would be entirely "consistent" to use the slightly harder or more challenging manual mode. I'd bet BMW does not feel M-DCT in auto mode is quite good enough to entirely remove the human from all shift decisions, I'd agree with that.
3. Alignment of our egos with the heros of our industry: Many racers nowadays shift with paddles. We simply want to do the same and have the same experience. Inconsistent?, perhaps a bit.

Agreed. My major point is the shifting the DCT manually with paddles gives you greater flexibility. Based on my understanding of DCT shift modes, by setting it in 'auto', it will either shift very early always, or very late always. Around town, this would be a nuisance. I think South is right when it comes to the track tho. In full 'level 7' auto DCT mode or whatever the highest is. It will maximize your power, meaning you have nothing to gain by shifting with the paddles manually. So, yes, I would say that paddle shifting would be silly if you were doing 10/10ths on the ring. But I could be missing something where you may still want paddle control even on the ring going all out.

As I stated earlier in partial agreement with South's idea:
"btw, what you say about putting the DCT in auto mode is correct. I agree it would be just as stupid to hit a paddle to feel good about yourself when the DCT auto mode could have done it better. On the other hand, DCT in auto mode is like a one track mind. Its either gonna shift at redline or shift like a vagina. Therefore you have something to gain by controlling it with a paddle. The gain is the flexibility in choosing when to shift early (conserve gas), and when to shift late (power). You can't keep switching the DCT mode every stoplight depending on your mood. DCT auto mode would have to be able to read your mind before it would become dumb to hit paddles yourself. Once it can read my mind and guess exactly when I want to shift, yes I would stop hitting the paddles unnecessarily. Your thinking, I agree with in general. You just missed this little quirk."

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by chitown08

Who cares whether you said E46 or "brand new" M3. It's about an E46, and you posted it in the E92 section!

I never said. It was the article. Again, did you even read it? Clearly, you didn't. Keep on digging that hole.

Originally Posted by chitown08

And yes I posted in response to your OFF TOPIC E46 post. I happen to not freak out about off topic threads. You, on the other hand, needlessly insulted this 'supposed' offtopic thread.

You are freaking out right now. I beg you to start making sense.
This thread isn't off topic for the forum. It is the discussion this thread is now about that is off topic. The thread was just fine from the OP.
Do you not comprehend that the points you try to make and severely flawed? Do yourself a favor and quit before you make yourself look even worse, if that is possible.

Originally Posted by chitown08

Accept it. You posted off topic, and now you're criticizing off topic threads. That is, again, by definition, a 'hypocrite.'

I don't personally insult people. That seems to be your new gig now. What a fantastic label you have made for yourself.

Your credibility = 0

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by Epacy

I never said. It was the article. Again, did you even read it? Clearly, you didn't. Keep on digging that hole.

You are freaking out right now. I beg you to start making sense.
This thread isn't off topic for the forum. It is the discussion this thread is now about that is off topic. The thread was just fine from the OP.
Do you not comprehend that the points you try to make and severely flawed? Do yourself a favor and quit before you make yourself look even worse, if that is possible.

I don't personally insult people. That seems to be your new gig now. What a fantastic label you have made for yourself.

Your credibility = 0

ok, I'm done trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Everyone knows you posted an article which is about an E46 M3 crashing into a house. I read the article. I even replied to the article.

For the last time, you posted an article about an E46 M3 in the E92 section.

OFFTOPIC

If you posted the article cuz you actually thought it was about an E92 M3, then, well, you're just not very smart. This is how you are trying to defend yourself, which is even more hilarious. You're defending your hypocrisy in favor of stupidity. Either way, its very sad. Call it an insult, call it whatever, I could care less. Its the truth. And everyone knows it. but you, of course

I'm not trying to start a war man. I just called you out for a valid reason. Eat it and lets move on. This arguing is detracting from the hilariousness of this ongoing thread.

[Champagne]

This thread is really starting to get saaaad...

[Epacy]

You can always tell when you have checkmated someone. They don't come back on any of the previous remarks.

Originally Posted by chitown08

If you posted the article cuz you actually thought it was about an E92 M3, then, well, you're just not very smart.

If someone told you about a "brand new M3", according to you, that would make you think it is a previous year model? Makes sense. Good point.

Originally Posted by chitown08

I'm not trying to start a war man.

Well, I certainly didn't. This is your concoction.

[swamp2]

Guys, E and Chi, I am not going to take sides here but I will try to offer a bit of humor (repeat humor) I used in a recent argument here that was REALLY annoying to me personally... Here the antagonist should be seen as the referee to both of you really going on and on, not giving up... I remember this is the theater and just cracking up.

Let's try to focus our stronger efforts in dealing with annoying little pests here that spout total BS and troll and whose statements are often massively riddled with illogical statements and points of view. This is the polar opposite of both of you guys, seriously!

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by southlight

I think it doesn't have much relevance if the "challenge" is self-inflicted or not. We're resolving challenges and are happy/enjoy it when we've coped these things ("pride" is too much for that feeling IMO). It's not the point if these things are necessary or if anybody else has done that before. We want to manage it and we're happy when it works. Just that simple. Your theory about being pride and then feeling silly because of having tricked oneself would require a kind of Homer-Simpson-mentality (think of the episode in NY. Homer starts driving his car which still has a wheel clamp on it: With every round of the wheel: YES(driving)....NO(bonk).....YES....NO...). But you know that it's self-inflicted all the time, you know what you're doing, you know why you're doing so and you know that it's not necessary. Maybe that's even part of the fun. Nobody will do that in the intention of managing a genuine challenge. Conquer a mountain if you're searching for such a challenge.

A good close.

Best regards, south

I respect your response.

You basically are saying that it doesn't matter whether the challenge is genuine or self-imposed. I think that is how the world operates.

But I disagree.

Pretend you were blind. Your blindness is your challenge. It is a genuine challenge. You would likely feel some sort of 'pride' in being able to walk down the street without tripping or crashing into things. You feel legitimate pride for overcoming the legitimate challenge.

Now pretend you are not blind, but you blindfold yourself. Your 'blindness' is again your challenge. Only this time, it is not a legitimate challenge. It is self-inflicted. Now, once you learn to walk around without tripping or crashing into things, would you still feel pride? Do you have the right to feel proud? Cuz I mean, if you intentionally did this so that you could conquer it and feel pride, then you're just fooling yourself.

This is pretty messed up which is why nobody gets me. Don't worry I'm used to it. I'm just humoring myself and I personally enjoy pondering such questions.

I think the fundamental answer depends on your intent:
1) Pride
If you blindfold yourself cuz you think it will be fun, and you think it will be fun because you expect to feel pride when conquered, then you're just kidding yourself. You are intentionally creating non-existant challenges just so you can beat them. If you choose the manual to maintain your manly pride, then this applies. The only way I see to feel true pride is to legitimately challenge yourself.
I doubt anyone will admit to #1 althought I'm sure it applies in many cases, its just that people don't realize it.
2) Fun
Seems like some people are saying manuals are just straight 'fun.' However, if you don't expect any pride, then I really don't know why it would be fun. This bothers people, but for the thousandth time, there is nothing inherently fun about pushing your leg and moving your arm. Its the challenge that is fun. I think 'Involvement' is just another way to explain "you challenging yourself." And it is the pride you feel for doing it that makes you call it 'fun.' Remember, it is, indeed, TRUE fun up until now because it is a TRUE challenge. The problem is that DCT will cause it to no longer be a TRUE challenge. So when you think about manual being fun, and you think its legitimately fun, you're right because DCT doesn't exist yet, so a manual is a legitimate challenge right now. But, and this is the big butt, once DCT hits, however, it is no longer a legitimate challenge. It is a fake challenge, therefore you shouldn't be proud, therefore it ceases to be fun. How do you justify rowing and stomping instead of finger pushing? Its not inherently more 'fun' to push your leg and move your arm that it is to move your finger. Its not more 'fun' to be able to pick shift points with your manual, because the DCT allows you to do that as well. So why else would it still be fun? The only answer I can come up with is that you are doing it for pride- for a challenge. The extra effort you are burdening yourself would not be 'fun' unless it provided you with some sort of pride. And I am questioning the validity of that pride. I'm saying you shouldn't be proud anymore because you will soon be intentionally, self-inflicting the challenge, which is the source of your pride. When you get into the business of intentionally doing things the hard way to challenge yourself and feel pride, I think I would feel the opposite of pride once I realize that is what I'm doing.

I think that the way manual fans boast about being 'true' enthusiasts, etc is a good illustration of the underlying reason men like manuals. Its the pride. We are proud of ourselves. (again, remember, up until now, there was, in fact, a legitimate reason to feel proud)

Lets remember that all of this started when ruff told swamp he was not a 'true' enthusiast because swamp likes DCT. I am attacking ruff's logic. If that is how ruff feels I think he is just fooling himself. He is purposely choosing manual so he can conquer it and be proud. And he looks down upon those who choose not to conquer his self-inflicted, artificial, set up, challenge. By looking down upon DCT, you are obviously proud of manual- by definition. That is the logic I am challenging and its not that I am defensive about DCT. I drive stick, I think its fun, and I don't know if I will choose DCT or manual. But if the only reason I think manual is fun is because it makes me proud, then I think I would just feel silly when my choice of manual over DCT becomes a choice based upon an underlying intention to create a challenge for myself to conquer.

south, I bet you are thinking: "but I'm not super 'proud' of manual therefore, this does not apply to me. I just think manuals are 'fun'."

If anyone thinks that. Go back and read #2. I believe you think its fun because its a challenge and it makes you proud to conquer. If you refuse to accept that, then please explain why manuals are fun? Seriously. Tell my why its fun. Inherently fun. I'm truly curious to know what makes it fun if its not the challenge.(again, controlling shift points is not a valid reason, because DCT will allow that as well)

If no one can explain why manuals are inherently fun, then it must just be the challenge that is fun for you. And if that is the case then- will the challenge still be 'fun' to you when you have intentionally imposed it upon yourself? I say no. Once I have to intentionally challenge myself with a manual (instead of DCT paddle), then it will no longer be fun, because it is no longer a legitimate challenge, and therefore I cannot allow myself to feel pride. And no pride = no fun.

This is a hilarious post if anyone actually reads it. I'm sure no more than like 2 ppl will read it. But I hope they enjoy it and can tell me why a manual is inherently fun, if its not for the challenge.

[Epacy]

Swamp, c'mon. Some of your arguments could be considered short stories!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Swamp, c'mon. Some of your arguments could be considered short stories!

You are right and that is true and funny. I guess I just respect both of you guys and although sometimes it is fun, challenging and a matter of pride ( ) to argue with dolts, neither of you guys are! I don't like to see the arguments between good guys go so bad. That's all. Cheers.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by chitown08

I respect your response.
...

Chitown keep writting and articulating your points! I don't care if anyone else appreciates or reads them. Sometimes an audience of one is all that matters and I find your insight into the psychology of driving thourough and genuinely novel, insightful and accurate. Did you say your background is economics? Folks in this area often have to deeply ponder reward of all types as it is a key part of behaviors responsible for economics.

My only very minor criticism is that you get so excited you sometimes repeat the same point over and over (we all do sometimes). Although that is part of effective communication, open with your point, repeat it as you build your case and then close with your point again. In shorter texts it can be fairly distracting. I think you could turn this into a great academic topic. You could even do something totally wacky like monitor folks brains with fMRI (maybe in a driving simulator or game) to try to determine if MT use is exciting the fun/reward or pride/reward brain centers (or both). I know getting waaaay OT but crazy, insightful and passionate can posts get others excited as well.

[UltimateBMW]

Wow this thread became like a battle royal. I can't even tell who is on what side anymore.

I guess kudos to EnzoB for having the largest Intro post ever.

[UltimateBMW]

And I'm going to take after Swamp and 'again' try to share alittle Jessica Alba with this passionate community. Because I think we can all agree on that if there is one thing we would love to be passionate about... it would be Jessica Alba.

[Big Windy]

link is kaputt...