Proof of OE/Gintani dyno manipulation

[Madingleym3]

I am really interested in this

So if I get this right, it's not that dyno dynamics is a bad dyno, it's just some people abuse the system

So it's a good dyno that can be tricked by the shop without us knowing

What stuff needs to be shown so we know there are no tricks being used?

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by Madingleym3

I am really interested in this

So if I get this right, it's not that dyno dynamics is a bad dyno, it's just some people abuse the system

So it's a good dyno that can be tricked by the shop without us knowing

What stuff needs to be shown so we know there are no tricks being used?

It's a brilliant machine but as with all machines.... you can manipulate the results.

Here are the basic ways:

1) Manually Change the correction Factor between pre and post tune
2) Move the inlet temperature probe to show different temperatures between pre and post tune
3) Use different gears between pre and post tune
4) Strap the car down differently pre and post tune

But there are more sinister ways where the dyno is used properly and everything kept consistent. That is to detune the car below stock and then do a baseline. There are a few other ways to change how the car performs too which you just cannot catch other than study the graph and say.... why is the car reading so low to start with???

Let me make one thing very very clear again just incase people miss out on it

These cars do NOT read low on these dyno's. Maybe not as high as a dynojet but even still, it's not far off. Not sub 300rwhp anyway!!

[Jaypod]

Thanks for all the good info Sal!

[mastek]

Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip

But their behavior Friday, Jeremy's post, and the fact that they will not show me the charts leads me to believe otherwise.... you can draw your own conclusion based on the evidence at hand.

I thought that you were trying to sue Jeremy/OE Tuning/Gintani? for allegedly stealing Powerchip files and starting his own company .... maybe thats why they are reluctant to show you any of their files - for fear of yu gathering evidence or a case against him/them?

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

^
Or the customer can take it to another shop to verify gains.

It is that simple.

Thats what I did, never use the dyno from where you bought the parts.

I dyno'd my car at a Mustang shop that didn't have anything to do with BMWs at all.

Dave

[alpine335i]

Why don't you guys (powerchip) spend this much time and effort working on your own product so people don't switch to another tuner in the first place? And the fact you guys are a tuning company and have no knowledge of dynos and have to result in calling your "friend" isn't too assuring. This still doesn't prove anything. It sure will give people doubts yes, but I hope people see the person war your raging against Jeremy. No one has ever had anything bad to say about him or his work except PC and it's affiliates. Not one customer has ever been in happy with his tune. Can you say the same? If anyone who had had there car tuned by Jero has doubts then go dyno your car on your own at a non BMW dyno shop and then you can rest assure that no one is tampering with your dyno numbers. Yes I am 100% backing OE/gintani and will continue to let jeremy tune my car.

[chungdae]

^Everybody is going to lose here. After this entire fiasco I am just going to delay or toss my super charging plans for the M3. PC and Gintani will both lose customers and the public will never know what the truth really is. Now it's all about damage control.

[Cptn Mo 703]

Originally Posted by alpine335i

Yes I am 100% backing OE/gintani and will continue to let jeremy tune my car.

+1000

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by alpine335i

This still doesn't prove anything. It sure will give people doubts yes, but I hope people see the person war your raging against Jeremy.

Alpine335I, you should officially change your name to RipVanWinkle335I because you've obviously been sleeping for the last 6 pages.

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

be aware!! You get caught doing that and it's curtains for you in the public eye.

I think it's already curtains in the public eye for two folks referenced here who aren't called PC.

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by alpine335i

Why don't you guys (powerchip) spend this much time and effort working on your own product so people don't switch to another tuner in the first place? And the fact you guys are a tuning company and have no knowledge of dynos and have to result in calling your "friend" isn't too assuring. This still doesn't prove anything. It sure will give people doubts yes, but I hope people see the person war your raging against Jeremy. No one has ever had anything bad to say about him or his work except PC and it's affiliates. Not one customer has ever been in happy with his tune. Can you say the same? If anyone who had had there car tuned by Jero has doubts then go dyno your car on your own at a non BMW dyno shop and then you can rest assure that no one is tampering with your dyno numbers. Yes I am 100% backing OE/gintani and will continue to let jeremy tune my car.

I don't know anything about PC or their tunes but I wouldn't expect anyone but the manufacturer themselves to know everything about a certain dyno. Especially when it comes to things that you shouldn't be doing anyway. I think it was a great idea to get an expert involved because it eliminated the argument that he didn't know what he was doing at the dyno and just screwed everything up. Maybe no one has ever said anything bad against OE because until now nobody ever knew the real story. What if everyone who has OE tunes now go and have their cars independently tested and find this has been going on longer than we thought? I can only make conclusion based on the information that has been presented and as of right now, all of the information leads me to believe that something is not right with the original dyno charts. The fact that OE/Gintani and a few people here who seem to be working for them or affiliated with them in some way have chosen not to provide information to defend themselves but instead resort to just name calling and personal attacks leads me to believe that there may be some truth to what PC is saying.

Originally Posted by mastek

I thought that you were trying to sue Jeremy/OE Tuning/Gintani? for allegedly stealing Powerchip files and starting his own company .... maybe thats why they are reluctant to show you any of their files - for fear of yu gathering evidence or a case against him/them?

He's already given them the option of reflashing the car to stock before he even gets it to eliminate that possibility. They still are refusing. To me, the screams of having something to hide and unless they start coming out with some real facts, it going to be hard for them to prove otherwise.

[gthal]

Without having all of the facts, it does seem that OE Tuning and Jeremy need to step up and provide credible support. If I were running their business and was legit, I would definitely take PC up on their challenge because it would clear the accusations an make PC look silly. The ONLY reason to ignore the challenge is to cover up.

Also, there does seem to be a strong trend on this thread for OE supporters to be defending the claims by name calling, saying that everyone doesn't know Jeremy, etc... none of which proves or supports anything. All it shows is a vested interest in defending a company that will not defend themselves. The only real "evidence" is the info that was posted that questions OE/Jeremy. Although I don't care who is right or wrong, it seems to me that OE/Jeremy and his supporters need to step up with better support or many will make the only reasonable conclusion that something is fishy (whether that is true of not). In the meantime, its comes across as Jeremy/OE fanboism only...

[micah_675]

I would like to put into perspective how wide reaching this will be. ALL E90, 91, 92's will be affected by this news. All of OE's "tunes" will immediately become suspect to tampering and doubt will be cast. All parts of the 3-series forums are watching this. And to be honest, it is already out of hand. I call for OE to put up or have your fanbois shut up.

[Dave07997S]

OE is probably praying for this thread to get locked..

The truth will come out or already has.

Dave

[Madingleym3]

I know it seems obvious they cheated, but let's give Gintani the right of reply

For all we know they are preparing all the graphs in shootout mode and are going to post them, and they will go through all the claims against them and explain everything clearly, point by point

If on the other hand they hope this all goes away because consumers have been stupid in the past so why should we change anytime soon, then that's when we need to stand up to a shop and vote with our keyboards and our wallets

Gintani just got bitchslapped, and if they hide behind their keyboard and dontbpost up the proof, then why would anyone buy their supercharger kit?

[southlight]

Raging and name calling will result in post deletions and infractions, but it won't get this thread locked.

@all, Jason's earlier reminder still stands, keep your posts on-topic and technical or they'll be deleted.


Best regards,
south

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by mastek

I thought that you were trying to sue Jeremy/OE Tuning/Gintani? for allegedly stealing Powerchip files and starting his own company .... maybe thats why they are reluctant to show you any of their files - for fear of yu gathering evidence or a case against him/them?

I have never threatened lawsuit (personally) against Jeremy/Gintani.

To my understanding, Jeremy has the last 18 years of the companies library of files. We have already confirmed code matches on many cars after he left Powerchip. I can not comment any further on this, as I do not want to be in the middle of it. Both PC and OE have great tunes. Are the OE tunes great because they are based off of proven Powerchip tunes? Maybe. I can't say for sure. It's not my battle.

That's not the issue at hand here. Let's keep it on topic. I told Alex at Gintani that I would keep this professional as long as he didn't involve me in this on a personal level. So far, he hasn't, and I have stayed on the sidelines throughout this whole Jeremy vs PC ordeal. I don't want reasons to become more actively involved in it. Let's focus on the accuracy of these dynos.

[alpina527]

Having been following this thread with interest, I can't help feeling that Gintani are backed into a corner. The only way out is to show us the figures.

I have been a personal friend of Sal at Evolve for around 15 Years now and can confidently state that he will get to the root of the problem given the info.

How about Both parties send their tuned files over to Sal@Evolve for him to install on a UK car to verify the results. Remember he is a UK tuner with no affiliation to either US company. Failing that, just let him have the figures from all the runs so he can verify them.

If neither Party wants to play ball, then I think it really is curtain time.

BTW. The Evolve Dyno puts my totally stock 08 at 416bhp at the flywheel which is bang on the money

[mastek]

Originally Posted by mastek

99% of e9xM3 drivers are not using the cars OE tune potential.

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

This makes no sense

Sure it does, i'll explain it 'special' just for you:
- It means; that the you are not using this car to its full potential enough to warrant an ECU upgrade.
- It means; you should spend the $1000 on a driving school at your local road course track, instead of silly software 3whp upgrades (or 30whp as some claim)
- It means; theres more then enough power and $10,000,000 in BMW OE tuning that your wasting your time and money trying to squeeze extra hp out of this car through some 'tuners' magic formula.

Originally Posted by mastek

Most of the people that are trying to get gains from "software" on these cars are wanting a supercharger but cannot afford one.

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

This makes even less sense

Sure it does, i'll go even slower this time, k?
- The demographic of e9xm3 drivers that expect significant gains from 'ECU tunes' are more likely to install a Supercharger IF they had the $$$ (take a poll).
- If you are wanting an 'ECU Tune' for this car - it means you are wanting more power. Because you want to merge into stop n go traffic faster ... or race to the next stop light and get there 1st
- This car has plenty of power for those who can use it and especially for those who think they can. Its a matter of arrogance vs. impotence...or importance (one of those).
- The same e9xm3 crowd that expects gains from an ECU tune is the same crowd that would tear out the m3's soul by installing a supercharger in hopes of making them 'faster' ...yet they are never seen at "the track" (see Road Course - not 1/4 mile "drag strip") .... and where on the streets can you do a 60-140mph run (do I even need to 'suggest' how moronic that is if you do this on public streets?) .... and they obviously make up in whp what they lack in car control or common sense. Sound familiar?

Originally Posted by mastek

If you are taking this car to a 1/4 mile strip and call that "the track" ...you might be a poser... and you bought the wrong car.

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Wikipedia: Dragstrip, track used for drag racing.
Whos the poser now?

Wikipedia, really?? Lol
"The track" or "tracking my car" or going to the "race track" refers to an Oval or a Road Course .......
"drag strip" or "1/4 mile" or "taking my car to the strip so it can get destroyed by a 9 second Pinto" refers to the Drag Strip.
Wikipedia?? Wtf has this world come to... lol

Originally Posted by mastek

Software tuning on this car is silly. They re-map the throttle response so you "feel" like your getting more power.

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Wrong again, unless you actually dont have an M and drive a Dodge Aries K

Wikipedia: Wrong - means that you are not right
I cant argue that.
What is a Dodge Aries K ...and why do you know this?

[chungdae]

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by alpina527

Having been following this thread with interest, I can't help feeling that Gintani are backed into a corner. The only way out is to show us the figures.

I have been a personal friend of Sal at Evolve for over 20 Years now and can confidently state that he will get to the root of the problem given the info.

How about Both parties send their tuned files over to Sal@Evolve for him to install on a UK car to verify the results. Remember he is a UK tuner with no affiliation to either US company. Failing that, just let him have the figures from all the runs so he can verify them.

If neither Party wants to play ball, then I think it really is curtain time.

BTW. The Evolve Dyno puts my totally stock 08 at 416bhp at the flywheel which is bang on the money

Hi Ian,

Did not expect to see you on this one!

Small typo on the number of years we have known each other.... you mean about 8-10?

I will analyse dyno data but definately do not want to see any of PC or OE's tunes as we are tuning in the US to almost the same level as in the UK but I see where your coming from on this one.

Let's see how this all pans out!

[alpina527]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Small typo on the number of years we have known each other.... you mean about 8-10?

Edited to around 15. I'm sure it was circa 1996/97, but whatever.

I am watching this with interest.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by mastek

- It means; that the you are not using this car to its full potential enough to warrant an ECU upgrade.
- It means; you should spend the $1000 on a driving school at your local road course track, instead of silly software 3whp upgrades (or 30whp as some claim)
- It means; theres more then enough power and $10,000,000 in BMW OE tuning that your wasting your time and money trying to squeeze extra hp out of this car through some 'tuners' magic formula.

Originally Posted by mastek

- The demographic of e9xm3 drivers that expect significant gains from 'ECU tunes' are more likely to install a Supercharger IF they had the $$$ (take a poll).
- If you are wanting an 'ECU Tune' for this car - it means you are wanting more power. Because you want to merge into stop n go traffic faster ... or race to the next stop light and get there 1st
- This car has plenty of power for those who can use it and especially for those who think they can. Its a matter of arrogance vs. impotence...or importance (one of those).
- The same e9xm3 crowd that expects gains from an ECU tune is the same crowd that would tear out the m3's soul by installing a supercharger in hopes of making them 'faster' ...yet they are never seen at "the track" (see Road Course - not 1/4 mile "drag strip")

Seriously, don't you get at all embarassed when you need to post such BS? You have any understanding of the word "conjecture"?