Audi TT-RS, is it a true M3 rival?

[///Monster]

I don't really think its going to compete. Plus your top speed #'s are off. The m3 should have a top speed somewhere around 190mph but its governed at 155mph like all German car manufactures except for Porsche.

[footie]

Originally Posted by ///Monster

I don't really think its going to compete. Plus your top speed #'s are off. The m3 should have a top speed somewhere around 190mph but its governed at 155mph like all German car manufactures except for Porsche.

You are completely correct, the M3's true unlimited peak speed is probably near 190mph and I very much doubt the TT-RS would see more than 180mph unlimited. But the facts are that BMW do limit the M3 to 155mph in most countries and in German you can get this increased to 180mph where as the TT-RS like the RS6 will be offered with either the normal limiter or the increased 175mph limiter (at least that is what I was told).

Basically most of both models will be limited to the same peak speed (155mph). Next is the acceleration times, the M3 will probably win this if the races run much beyond 125mph but when was the last time you were in a race that ran that far. Up to this point based on the projected weight and output of the TT-RS these two will be pretty close. Then there is the handling, very much the unknown but again based on the TT-S I think it's fair to say that the RS will all but match the M3 on normal race tracks but I doubt it will match the M3 on the Nurburgring.

If one can argue that the latest Cayman S with it's 325hp and LSD is a realistic rival to the M3 then this argument is equally as valid for the TT-RS to be a genuine rival if space isn't that high a priority.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

If one can argue that the latest Cayman S with it's 325hp and LSD is a realistic rival to the M3 then this argument is equally as valid for the TT-RS to be a genuine rival if space isn't that high a priority.

The Cayman isn't a direct M3 rival. You can compare them sure, which is what you are attempting to do with this TT-RS no one cares about. However, the rivals for the M3's class are pretty obvious. The TT-RS should worry about the Z4 with the N54. And well... the Z4 already won.

[attila]

I've not yet drove the new Z4 but as far as driving excitement goes the TT-S is better than the M3. I would have gone with the TT-S but I need back seats.
The truth is, on a limited testdrive, around town, the M3 did not show too much.
(So I really hope all the good reviews I read, are true about the M3.)

[footie]

Originally Posted by attila

I've not yet drove the new Z4 but as far as driving excitement goes the TT-S is better than the M3. I would have gone with the TT-S but I need back seats.
The truth is, on a limited testdrive, around town, the M3 did not show too much.
(So I really hope all the good reviews I read, are true about the M3.)

Yeah, the M3 is as good as the reviews but unlike the TT-S it's slower to show it's wilder side and really does require you to push it beyond what would get you at ticket to unlock.

Originally Posted by sticky

The Cayman isn't a direct M3 rival. You can compare them sure, which is what you are attempting to do with this TT-RS no one cares about. However, the rivals for the M3's class are pretty obvious. The TT-RS should worry about the Z4 with the N54. And well... the Z4 already won.

You really need to read the posts from fellow member instead of continuely fighting with me. NewSong is one example of a potential M3 customer who is considering the Cayman among other cars.

I don't see why the TT-RS will have any trouble with the Z4 with the 3.0tt, it will weigh more, have less power and torque and because it's a normal range model and not an M it won't have been designed to compete with the TT-RS. Now if you were to talk about the new Z4M with the S65 engine then that might be a different opinion but even the M3 will not compete with it.

Why do you reckon the TT-RS will be any different, is it because it's an Audi and you clearly hate Audis. Is that because you were banned from one of there forums, I'm suprised you don't hate BMWs as well since you were banned from here too.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Sticky

However, the rivals for the M3's class are pretty obvious.

Ya, the GT-R positions itself nicely into that category as well as the supercar category.

Originally Posted by Sticky

The TT-RS should worry about the Z4 with the N54. And well... the Z4 already won.

Is that right. When were you appointed the new car czar?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by attila

I've not yet drove the new Z4 but as far as driving excitement goes the TT-S is better than the M3. I would have gone with the TT-S but I need back seats.
The truth is, on a limited testdrive, around town, the M3 did not show too much.
(So I really hope all the good reviews I read, are true about the M3.)

The driving excitement of the TT-S you talk about would primarily be due to it's it's estimated low curb weight of 3,125 lbs, not it's driving dynamics.

[footie]

Originally Posted by ruff

The driving excitement of the TT-S you talk about would primarily be due to it's it's estimated low curb weight of 3,125 lbs, not it's driving dynamics.

It definitely plays a very big part in why the TT-S feels better than the M3, especially when compared on the road and not the track. Dynamically the TT-S isn't as good as the M3, much of this is down to it's steering but it ain't that far behind the M3 and it can corner surprising well, though mid-corner bumps can unsettle it in a way that isn't present with the M3. It's suspension still needs some fine-tuning as far as I am concerned.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ruff

Ya, the GT-R positions itself nicely into that category as well as the supercar category.



Is that right. When were you appointed the new car czar?

You missed the ceremony.

GTR is a supercar now? I'm setting the standards a bit higher than that. The Z4 with the N54 exists, this TT-RS still doesn't even have confirmed specs. The N54 has been out, its numbers are well known, where have you been? Do you have trouble understanding the TT, Z4, and Boxster are direct competitors with one another?

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Yeah, the M3 is as good as the reviews but unlike the TT-S it's slower to show it's wilder side and really does require you to push it beyond what would get you at ticket to unlock.



You really need to read the posts from fellow member instead of continuely fighting with me. NewSong is one example of a potential M3 customer who is considering the Cayman among other cars.

I don't see why the TT-RS will have any trouble with the Z4 with the 3.0tt, it will weigh more, have less power and torque and because it's a normal range model and not an M it won't have been designed to compete with the TT-RS. Now if you were to talk about the new Z4M with the S65 engine then that might be a different opinion but even the M3 will not compete with it.

Why do you reckon the TT-RS will be any different, is it because it's an Audi and you clearly hate Audis. Is that because you were banned from one of there forums, I'm suprised you don't hate BMWs as well since you were banned from here too.

Posts from other people don't change the fact the TT is NOT an M3 competitor. Despite your skewing of facts and all the numbers in the TT's favor, it is not an M3 competitor. When are you going to get it? 9 pages, and you go on about this ridiculous TT without even having the official specs.

The Z4 with the N54 will slap this TT around because it won't be AWD. Do I really need to educate you on drivetrain losses again?

If they make a new Z4M with the S65, you have to to be kidding me that the TT-RS wold be the real competition for it. Wow, just wow, almost as little sense as your last sentence.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Posts from other people don't change the fact the TT is NOT an M3 competitor. Despite your skewing of facts and all the numbers in the TT's favor, it is not an M3 competitor. When are you going to get it? 9 pages, and you go on about this ridiculous TT without even having the official specs.

The Z4 with the N54 will slap this TT around because it won't be AWD. Do I really need to educate you on drivetrain losses again?

If they make a new Z4M with the S65, you have to to be kidding me that the TT-RS wold be the real competition for it. Wow, just wow, almost as little sense as your last sentence.

Sticky,

Your lack of knowledge and negativity of Haldex systems and awd system in general and how much loss they produce proves that no amount of discussion will ever change your think or opinion.

I am not nor never did say that the TT-RS was a direct rival to the M3 but the facts are that many people considering the M3 also look at 2 seater and 2+2 coupes and those cars ARE direct rivals to what the TT-RS will be so it's logical to make the same suggestion.

By the way, I am in agreement that a Z4 with the S65 engine will be too much for the TT, especially on the straights but the same will be true for the M3. I don't understand how you missed this agreement, maybe you gloss over things too readily.

P.S.
The final paragraph is very relevant because it does explain your negative opinion of all things Audi, which are not always shared by other BMW enthusiasts, mainly because they are car nut primarily and BMW nuts second and can look at things more objectively.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Sticky,

Your lack of knowledge and negativity of Haldex systems and awd system in general and how much loss they produce proves that no amount of discussion will ever change your think or opinion.

I am not nor never did say that the TT-RS was a direct rival to the M3 but the facts are that many people considering the M3 also look at 2 seater and 2+2 coupes and those cars ARE direct rivals to what the TT-RS will be so it's logical to make the same suggestion.

By the way, I am in agreement that a Z4 with the S65 engine will be too much for the TT, especially on the straights but the same will be true for the M3. I don't understand how you missed this agreement, maybe you gloss over things too readily.

P.S.
The final paragraph is very relevant because it does explain your negative opinion of all things Audi, which are not always shared by other BMW enthusiasts, mainly because they are car nut primarily and BMW nuts second and can look at things more objectively.

Uh, didn't the R8 go to a different AWD system than the RS4? What was the drivetrain loss difference? Nothing, sorry, the lack of knowledge is with you.

Ya, and someone with an M3 might be looking for an SUV as well. Maybe looking for a convertible. The argument for anything can be made but the fact is this car is not in the M3's class.

I have no negative opinion on Audi, I will be watching RS5 development closely, but facts are fact, and fact is the M3 will eat this TT alive and the M3 is not the competition for it, the Z4 is.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Uh, didn't the R8 go to a different AWD system than the RS4? What was the drivetrain loss difference? Nothing, sorry, the lack of knowledge is with you.

Ya, and someone with an M3 might be looking for an SUV as well. Maybe looking for a convertible. The argument for anything can be made but the fact is this car is not in the M3's class.

I have no negative opinion on Audi, I will be watching RS5 development closely, but facts are fact, and fact is the M3 will eat this TT alive and the M3 is not the competition for it, the Z4 is.

When the TT-RS comes out and is tested by SportAuto on the Hockenheim track, if it's time is approximately the same as the M3 will you still believe the opinion that the M3 will eat it alive. I think you are very anti-Audi and it shows in every post you write.

I am only highlighting some possibilities that might materialise when the TT-RS is released and these opinions of mine are based on the suggested spec and past experience of the TT-S.

P.S.

I keep coming back to dyno reading with awd cars but you still insist on using them regardless of many people acknowledging that at best they should be used as a tuning tool to see before and after results. Here we will definitely disagree until hell freezes over.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

When the TT-RS comes out and is tested by SportAuto on the Hockenheim track, if it's time is approximately the same as the M3 will you still believe the opinion that the M3 will eat it alive. I think you are very anti-Audi and it shows in every post you write.

I am only highlighting some possibilities that might materialise when the TT-RS is released and these opinions of mine are based on the suggested spec and past experience of the TT-S.

P.S.

I keep coming back to dyno reading with awd cars but you still insist on using them regardless of many people acknowledging that at best they should be used as a tuning tool to see before and after results. Here we will definitely disagree until hell freezes over.

The only reason you don't like the dyno for AWD cars is that Audi's put up pathetically weak numbers on them. Funny, the 911 turbo guys don't have a problem with them. Neither do subaru people, GTR people, Evo people, the list goes on.

I don't read sportAuto and I don't care about it. I'll be sure to come to my own conclusion and not base it on what some magazine does on a track whose times I am not the least bit familiar with.

You always post these european sources that don't correlate whatsoever to the real world. Like the crap you post showing the S5 as equal to the 335 when the 335 destroys it in reality.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Sticky

I don't read sportAuto and I don't care about it.

You always post these european sources that don't correlate whatsoever to the real world. Like the crap you post showing the S5 as equal to the 335 when the 335 destroys it in reality.

You may not care about Sport Auto. That doesn't change the fact that it is the most respected tester of performance car data in the industry. Your arguments are about to suffer a credibility hit exponentially.

Originally Posted by Sticky

You missed the ceremony.

I am not too pleased about missing an invite to your inauguration.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ruff

You may not care about Sport Auto. That doesn't change the fact that it is the most respected tester of performance car data in the industry. Your arguments are about to suffer a credibility hit exponentially.



I am not too pleased about missing an invite to your inauguration.

We'll have another one, I wanted more strippers anyway.

No, it doesn't change the fact it is respected. It doesn't change the fact that a magazine will not make my conclusions for me. Regardless, maybe we should wait on the official specs and numbers first, before throwing out non-existant Sport Auto numbers?

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

The only reason you don't like the dyno for AWD cars is that Audi's put up pathetically weak numbers on them. Funny, the 911 turbo guys don't have a problem with them. Neither do subaru people, GTR people, Evo people, the list goes on.

I have said my piece of dynos and their reliability in producing accurate numbers, no point in adding anything here.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I don't read sportAuto and I don't care about it. I'll be sure to come to my own conclusion and not base it on what some magazine does on a track whose times I am not the least bit familiar with.

I have no doubt you will reach your own very unbiased opinion on the TT-RS and any other car that isn't a BMW. It mightn't be the same opinion as everyone else but that's OK by you because you are the only person that counts, ain't that right sticky.

Originally Posted by Sticky

You always post these european sources that don't correlate whatsoever to the real world. Like the crap you post showing the S5 as equal to the 335 when the 335 destroys it in reality.

So everything outside of the States isn't the real world or is it everything outside of California which is probably nearer the truth.

There is some people who's debates and discussions even when one happen disagree with them have valid points. Needless to say you don't fall into that category.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

I have said my piece of dynos and their reliability in producing accurate numbers, no point in adding anything here.



I have no doubt you will reach your own very unbiased opinion on the TT-RS and any other car that isn't a BMW. It mightn't be the same opinion as everyone else but that's OK by you because you are the only person that counts, ain't that right sticky.



So everything outside of the States isn't the real world or is it everything outside of California which is probably nearer the truth.

There is some people who's debates and discussions even when one happen disagree with them have valid points. Needless to say you don't fall into that category.

Yes, good idea about leaving the dyno part alone.

Footie, I am not the only person that counts. I take a lot of time structuring my opinion around what would make you happy. Don't discount it my friend.

No, everything outside of the states or California is not what matters but you are hoping to base the performance of the TT-RS on Sport Auto. That is all you have to hang on to, better hope they don't dissapoint you. Come on... plus we know its a turbo 5 right? We know its around 350 crank right? Chances are, the Z4 with the N54 will be putting out more at the wheels.

With Audi, aim lower on your comparison scale, that way you won't be disappointed with the actual product.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Yes, good idea about leaving the dyno part alone.

Footie, I am not the only person that counts. I take a lot of time structuring my opinion around what would make you happy. Don't discount it my friend.

No, everything outside of the states or California is not what matters but you are hoping to base the performance of the TT-RS on Sport Auto. That is all you have to hang on to, better hope they don't dissapoint you. Come on... plus we know its a turbo 5 right? We know its around 350 crank right? Chances are, the Z4 with the N54 will be putting out more at the wheels.

With Audi, aim lower on your comparison scale, that way you won't be disappointed with the actual product.

I don't only base hope on SportAuto results, I just know that what they usually find is similar to the results that will be found in the rest of Europe.

Another thing, Haldex systems don't sap power like any other awd system, it's part of the reason why VAG choose it for the Veyron. FWD cars have less drivetrain lose than any rwd setup and the Haldex system is basically a FWD system which can shift power rearwards when required, so once the requirement for additional grip to get off the line is over more of those 350hp will be going to the wheels, also instead of a pitiful 270ft/lbs that the Z4 has to use the TT-RS will probably have 50~70ft/lbs more.

I know the acceleration figures for the TT-S and S4 and since the TT-RS has an estimated hp and torque greater than the S4 which covers the 60, 100 and 125mph points in 5.1s, 11.5s and 18.6s then it's a realistic opinion that the TT-RS will get to 100mph in the low to mid 10s and the 125mph in the 16s mark. Two figures which aren't that far off the M3.

So I think it's a bit too early to lower my expectations, at least not to the point where the Z4 3.0tt sits at any case.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

I don't only base hope on SportAuto results, I just know that what they usually find is similar to the results that will be found in the rest of Europe.

Another thing, Haldex systems don't sap power like any other awd system, it's part of the reason why VAG choose it for the Veyron. FWD cars have less drivetrain lose than any rwd setup and the Haldex system is basically a FWD system which can shift power rearwards when required, so once the requirement for additional grip to get off the line is over more of those 350hp will be going to the wheels, also instead of a pitiful 270ft/lbs that the Z4 has to use the TT-RS will probably have 50~70ft/lbs more.

I know the acceleration figures for the TT-S and S4 and since the TT-RS has an estimated hp and torque greater than the S4 which covers the 60, 100 and 125mph points in 5.1s, 11.5s and 18.6s then it's a realistic opinion that the TT-RS will get to 100mph in the low to mid 10s and the 125mph in the 16s mark. Two figures which aren't that far off the M3.

So I think it's a bit too early to lower my expectations, at least not to the point where the Z4 3.0tt sits at any case.

You are estimating performance without specs? And the M3 gets to 100 mph in under 10 seconds, mid 10's won't cut it and the TT-RS will struggle to put up E46 M3 level numbers.

I'll put my money on the N54 Z4, as I would put my money on a 335 vs. an S5 or S4.

Where are you getting this 270 ft/lbs figure for the Z4? It is wrong. Anyway, your thread is rather absurd, lets see Audi get the car out first, or at least the specs on it, before you start proclaiming it an M3 rival. I'm calling it right now that the E46 M3 will spank it, let alone the E92.

[attila]

I hope all of you guys realize that almost all of these debates are more or less pointless and childish, however entertaining.
None of these cars are made to compete based upon certain regulations like F1, F3, or GT classes etc so you cannot really declare one or other the superior based upon objective criteria like numbers.
Of course, you still can say "I like this for this and that reason better" but don't expect others to agree with you.
But you all know that, so why am I writing?

[footie]

Here's images that have appeared on the Worldcarfans website.

Front spoiler
Rear Spoiler
Exhaust pipes

The cropping and leaking of official car pictures weeks or even days before they are officially revealed is becoming the new in-thing in the motoring world. Audi is the latest "victim" of this practice after these cropped pictures of the TT-RS leaked out. The high-performance TT looks like a real pocket R8 from these pictures. LED daytime running lights feature prominently at the front, so do bi-xenon headlights and honeycomb-design air vents with three blades at the bottom front.

The wheels are dual-spoked and feature brake calipers with the RS badge on them. Unlike the TT-S it appears the rear wing on the TT-RS is fixed which means it doesn't move up and down depending on the speed of the car. Finally the cherry on top is the actual TT RS badging that can be seen clearly next to the left rear lights.

Plenty of times before the TT-RS prototype has been caught by spy photographers during its many periods of testing. Recently powertrain details were reported as being a 2.5-litre engine making 340hp (253kW) and 332lb-ft (450Nm) of torque. It's a force fed motor using either turbo technology or a supercharger. Audi may even surprise with its new 3.0-litre supercharged engine.

Everyone who stays put on WCF should be able to view extensive official pictures and details of the TT-RS when the 2009 Geneva International Motor Show opens on March 3.

This development that is might actually use the S4 engine is a new one on me, I can't imagine how they could get it to fit and still use the normal Haldex system of all other TTs.