Audi TT-RS, is it a true M3 rival?

[dar2008]

Originally Posted by Phelipcopter

...M3 in more comparable to RS4/5 in terms of size/class/engine.

Precisely, well put, what I was trying to say, but failed to.

[footie]

No one is denying that the TT-RS main rivals are the CaymanS, SLK55 and the Z4M, all I was implying is that unlike these rivals the TT actually does have four seats, does have a useful boot and could be considered as a rival to the M3, especially if the figures being suggested turn out to be correct.

The guy who considered a C63 or RS4 against the M3 did so not for a need of extra space or 4 doors but because the performance/price was in the same ball park. Now that BMW has added the E90 that just gives the M3 more appeal, but the fact remains that most people buying these cars do so more on abilities than their practical abilities, that is why the 997 is also a rival, as is the Z06 and the GTR.

Guys, start thinking outside the box.

[Mu Mu]

Originally Posted by dar2008

Precisely, well put, what I was trying to say, but failed to.

On paper, yeah...but on the street no one is gonna say, "hey you drive a TT and I drive an M3 so technically we are not supposed to compete".

Just sayin!

Originally Posted by footie

No one is denying that the TT-RS main rivals are the CaymanS, SLK55 and the Z4M, all I was implying is that unlike these rivals the TT actually does have four seats, does have a useful boot and could be considered as a rival to the M3, especially if the figures being suggested turn out to be correct.

The guy who considered a C63 or RS4 against the M3 did so not for a need of extra space or 4 doors but because the performance/price was in the same ball park. Now that BMW has added the E90 that just gives the M3 more appeal, but the fact remains that most people buying these cars do so more on abilities than their practical abilities, that is why the 997 is also a rival, as is the Z06 and the GTR.

Guys, start thinking outside the box.

Big fucking

[OBI_agent]

I thought it was a twin sequential turbo engine like the supra........!

Anyway, I searched for the article and found out that the latest spec show that it is infact a supercharged/turbo 5cylinder

I wonder how the tuners will be able to mod this car........Pulleys+high boost on turbo's...look complicated but promising

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Not the type of person to argue for the sake of it.

Haldex is not like the torsen quattro system used in the rest of the range, it is primarily a fwd system which only transfers power to the rear when extra grip is needed, so with the exception of the standing start which will shift power briefly and in corners where grip is more important than hp the transmission lose should roughly be the same or there about to the rwd M3. That means there will be more of the 340hp+330ft/lbs getting used and less waste than expected.

This nose heavy argument is a total smoke and mirrors thing that most BMW owners using to dis either awd or fwd cars, fact is that is a very misunderstood debate. Nose weight isn't all that bad, it's down to how the suspension is setup to how much understeer is introduced. Audi normally add understeer as a safety issue but that doesn't have to be the case and there is numerous fwd cars which hardly understeer at all. Another thing nose weight does not translate to poor speed through the corner, again another myth that some BMW owners believe is true. Look at the TT-S and see how good it is through the corners in comparison to the 335i.



I know the M3 is limited, I was only highlighting the fact that the M3's topspeed is 155mph according to BMW where as the TT-RS might be 170mph according to the latest info. I don't think anyone was reading more into it.

Again I was only highlighting the 0-100km/h times of the TT-RS and showing how it is a true rival to the M3 on performance terms, that's all. If you don't feel it's a rival then no harm done, I on the other hand see things different and do see it as an alternative to the M3 if the rear seats aren't really a major issue.

You aren't? Have you seen that GTR thread?

Anyway, the Haldex is the least efficient of the systems. Just because it operates with 85% of the power being sent to the front wheels does not mean it is efficient. It just means 85% of what is being put to the ground is going to the front. The average losses of people who dyno the TT and A3 are 23%, pretty significant.

If you feel weight in the nose isn't an issue, cool, but I prefer for my cars to be balanced and behave like a RWD car so the throttle can adjust behavior. Get on the power in a nose heavy car sending its power to the front wheels and you will just understeer into a tree. Understeer for safety... yep, it will have plenty of it as Audi's always do.

[Congoman775]

I think the 2 cars M3 drivers need to watch out for are the RS5 and the new R4

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Anyway, the Haldex is the least efficient of the systems. Just because it operates with 85% of the power being sent to the front wheels does not mean it is efficient. It just means 85% of what is being put to the ground is going to the front. The average losses of people who dyno the TT and A3 are 23%, pretty significant.

Maybe you need to see the latest Haldex 4 systems before making judgements, also too many people here depend of results from dyno systems. Personally I listen to results on the track over dyno figures, but each to their own.

With you belief the RS6 shouldn't be as quick as the M5 causing of it's gearing, weight and expected lose combination of quattro and automatic transmission to the power at the wheels but in reality the RS6 always wins. Like I said, I listen to results and not dyno figures.

Originally Posted by Sticky

If you feel weight in the nose isn't an issue, cool, but I prefer for my cars to be balanced and behave like a RWD car so the throttle can adjust behavior. Get on the power in a nose heavy car sending its power to the front wheels and you will just understeer into a tree. Understeer for safety... yep, it will have plenty of it as Audi's always do.

Yes a balanced chassis has it's benefits but it's not the be all and end all of handling, especially when awd is thrown into the mix. Most people do the wrong thing when understeer occurs, that is add more and more lock instead of reducing the amount which quickly brings the understeer under control. Also most understeer occur at slow speed corners and in fact Audis will corner at around the same speed as their BMW rivals in mid to high speed corners. The low speed ones need to be approached in a different style and will actually produce a quicker result than most rwd cars. Another thing, the TT-S can corner quicker than either the Z4 or 335i so clearly that extra weight over the nose isn't causing it any problems.

I am pretty sure given the abilities of the TT-S that the RS version will be the match for the M3 on the track, even with less PTW. But only when the car is on sale and tested against it's rivals will this belief become reality.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Congoman775

I think the 2 cars M3 drivers need to watch out for are the RS5 and the new R4

Don't you mean RS5 and RS4.

[Congoman775]

Originally Posted by footie

Don't you mean RS5 and RS4.

No, I dont.


audi is releasing a mid-level car based on the R8, the "R4"

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/12/m...-on-the-table/

And obviously the RS5.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Maybe you need to see the latest Haldex 4 systems before making judgements, also too many people here depend of results from dyno systems. Personally I listen to results on the track over dyno figures, but each to their own.

With you belief the RS6 shouldn't be as quick as the M5 causing of it's gearing, weight and expected lose combination of quattro and automatic transmission to the power at the wheels but in reality the RS6 always wins. Like I said, I listen to results and not dyno figures.



Yes a balanced chassis has it's benefits but it's not the be all and end all of handling, especially when awd is thrown into the mix. Most people do the wrong thing when understeer occurs, that is add more and more lock instead of reducing the amount which quickly brings the understeer under control. Also most understeer occur at slow speed corners and in fact Audis will corner at around the same speed as their BMW rivals in mid to high speed corners. The low speed ones need to be approached in a different style and will actually produce a quicker result than most rwd cars. Another thing, the TT-S can corner quicker than either the Z4 or 335i so clearly that extra weight over the nose isn't causing it any problems.

I am pretty sure given the abilities of the TT-S that the RS version will be the match for the M3 on the track, even with less PTW. But only when the car is on sale and tested against it's rivals will this belief become reality.

Are you referring to the new RS6 vs. the old M5? With a twin turbo V10, I certainly hope it does well.

A balanced chassis is not the be all end all, it just feels and responds better. Sure engineers can mask the issues with a nose heavy car, but they are still present. They have to work around the design instead of having the design work for them. There are front engine cars that handle extremely well, I would still take a mid engine Ferrari over any of them though.

The car isn't even out yet and we don't have the final specs. You are basing these conclusions on what? AWD has higher losses than RWD, period, crank figures mean nothing. Audi can claim whatever they want at the crank. Look at the RS4's paper figures vs. the M3's. The M3 destroys it in reality.

I'm glad Audi is producing this car, but it won't be M3 competition. No one looking at an M3 will look at a TT instead, different cars. This car will be going after the cayman, Z4, and SLK. The Cayman will still remain the best drivers car of the bunch.

[matt beard]

Originally Posted by Congoman775

No, I dont.


audi is releasing a mid-level car based on the R8, the "R4"

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/12/m...-on-the-table/

And obviously the RS5.

Wow, the R4 what an ugly car. Terrible!

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by matt beard

Wow, the R4 what an ugly car. Terrible!

That is just a guess as to how it would look, the real thing never looks like those.

[Congoman775]

Originally Posted by matt beard

Wow, the R4 what an ugly car. Terrible!

just imagine an R8 but smaller.

the R8 is a beautiful car so id be shocked if the R4 wasnt beautiful

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Are you referring to the new RS6 vs. the old M5? With a twin turbo V10, I certainly hope it does well.

A balanced chassis is not the be all end all, it just feels and responds better. Sure engineers can mask the issues with a nose heavy car, but they are still present. They have to work around the design instead of having the design work for them. There are front engine cars that handle extremely well, I would still take a mid engine Ferrari over any of them though.

The car isn't even out yet and we don't have the final specs. You are basing these conclusions on what? AWD has higher losses than RWD, period, crank figures mean nothing. Audi can claim whatever they want at the crank. Look at the RS4's paper figures vs. the M3's. The M3 destroys it in reality.

I'm glad Audi is producing this car, but it won't be M3 competition. No one looking at an M3 will look at a TT instead, different cars. This car will be going after the cayman, Z4, and SLK. The Cayman will still remain the best drivers car of the bunch.

I was going to give a big long reply explaining why your opinions are wrong but thought ............ why? I know all it will do it continue this discussion away from the fact that the TT-RS will be a rival to the M3 in the same way as the Z06, 997, R8 and GTR all are, only at the other end of the scale.

I was only giving an opinion based on the info available about the car, obviously if things change then it's status as a rival could also change but based on this and how well the TT-S performs (which I have driven) I would definitely class the TT-RS with this spec to be on par with the M3.

P.S.
Regarding the RS6 beating all M5s, I post two videos as proof. Though there is numerous magazine tests showing similar results that the RS6 is comfortably quicker.

[u2b]0bdApIi9cZM&feature=channel[/u2b]

To me that is the current car is it not.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

I was going to give a big long reply explaining why your opinions are wrong but thought ............ why? I know all it will do it continue this discussion away from the fact that the TT-RS will be a rival to the M3 in the same way as the Z06, 997, R8 and GTR all are, only at the other end of the scale.

I was only giving an opinion based on the info available about the car, obviously if things change then it's status as a rival could also change but based on this and how well the TT-S performs (which I have driven) I would definitely class the TT-RS with this spec to be on par with the M3.

P.S.
Regarding the RS6 beating all M5s, I post two videos as proof. Though there is numerous magazine tests showing similar results that the RS6 is comfortably quicker.

[u2b]0bdApIi9cZM&feature=channel[/u2b]

To me that is the current car is it not.

The RS6 is a twin turbo V10, yes it beats (closer than it should be) a naturally aspirated smaller V10 in a straight line, shocking. When is that car coming to the USA again? When is it going to be offered in a sedan? Not any time soon. By then, BMW will be on its next generation and proceeding to bend Audi over and have its way with it as usual.

Weren't we talking about the TT-RS? It isn't an M3 competitor, it never will be. Completely different car, it will never drive like an M3. People who want an M3 will still want an M3 after this TT comes out.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

The RS6 is a twin turbo V10, yes it beats (closer than it should be) a naturally aspirated smaller V10 in a straight line, shocking. When is that car coming to the USA again? When is it going to be offered in a sedan? Not any time soon. By then, BMW will be on its next generation and proceeding to bend Audi over and have its way with it as usual.

There is a world beyond the United States you know. Or is it just California in your case.

The RS6 is available in Europe and the rest of the world where it is currently whipping the M5 at every opportunity. Yes the RS6 was quicker than the stock M5 which most people would expect, but the other video shows a chipped M5 with an exhaust upgrade which I myself must admit didn't expect. The Audi is top dog in this sector, not BMW or Mercedes, maybe in the future the others will take over the title but at the moment it's an Audi.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Weren't we talking about the TT-RS? It isn't an M3 competitor, it never will be. Completely different car, it will never drive like an M3. People who want an M3 will still want an M3 after this TT comes out.

Well let's agree to disagree on this. You believe the only people who might buy the M3 only consider cars in it's very narrow price band and it's exact measurements. I say dream on, I for one will consider the TT-RS after the M3 as well as the RS5 or even a 997 if I felt flush.

[Congoman775]

Originally Posted by footie

There is a world beyond the United States you know. Or is it just California in your case.

The RS6 is available in Europe and the rest of the world where it is currently whipping the M5 at every opportunity. Yes the RS6 was quicker than the stock M5 which most people would expect, but the other video shows a chipped M5 with an exhaust upgrade which I myself must admit didn't expect. The Audi is top dog in this sector, not BMW or Mercedes, maybe in the future the others will take over the title but at the moment it's an Audi.



Well let's agree to disagree on this. You believe the only people who might buy the M3 only consider cars in it's very narrow price band and it's exact measurements. I say dream on, I for one will consider the TT-RS after the M3 as well as the RS5 or even a 997 if I felt flush.

i agree, if the TT-RS comes out and its priced lower than the M3 it will pull ALOT of buyers.

the M3 is not a 'well priced' car. imo its overpriced.

[footie]

Those here with a bit of doubt about what the TT-RS will be like in comparison to the M3 really need to watch both these videos.

First one is the 0-400m runs and a Slalom course for each car tested, all of which are DCT with the exception being the SL63.

[u2b]z3HjWz_knSU&feature=related[/u2b]

I would like to point out that neither the M3 or the TT-S looked to be using launch control and the conditions on the 1/4mile run were dry. Now remember the TT only has 270hp compared to the M3's 420hp so you can imagine what an extra 65~70hp and a more advanced awd setup should do to the TT's abilities.

Second is the race which I might add was run in the wet.

[u2b]WKaE8ZQKT9M&feature=related[/u2b]

Though as you can see it didn't stop all of the rwd car from putting up a sterling performance. But the most interesting thing you can see is the ability of the TT to pull yards away from the more powerful rwd cars as they rejoin the straights.

Sticky, if you disregarded the TT-RS as a true rival to the M3's abilities, well all I can say is when it is finally released and meet one on the track I think you will be the one in for an unpleasant surprise.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

There is a world beyond the United States you know. Or is it just California in your case.

The RS6 is available in Europe and the rest of the world where it is currently whipping the M5 at every opportunity. Yes the RS6 was quicker than the stock M5 which most people would expect, but the other video shows a chipped M5 with an exhaust upgrade which I myself must admit didn't expect. The Audi is top dog in this sector, not BMW or Mercedes, maybe in the future the others will take over the title but at the moment it's an Audi.



Well let's agree to disagree on this. You believe the only people who might buy the M3 only consider cars in it's very narrow price band and it's exact measurements. I say dream on, I for one will consider the TT-RS after the M3 as well as the RS5 or even a 997 if I felt flush.

Yes, there are markets beyond the USA, just smaller ones. California just happens to be the worlds biggest. The car isn't available here so Audi can strap it with booster rockets for all I care.

The TT is not the drivers car the M3 is. The only car you mentioned that is a true replactement for the M3 or alternative would be the 911. If someone puts an emphasis on rear seats, the M3 still remains the choice.

The TT is cute, glad Audi is trying. I wonder if it will be anywhere near an M coupe, lets not leap to the M3.

You are posting videos of other cars and expecting that to have some kind of relevance to the TT-RS? When you have the final specs, I'll be glad to remind you the M3 spanks it

[matt beard]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Yes, there are markets beyond the USA, just smaller ones. California just happens to be the worlds biggest. The car isn't available here so Audi can strap it with booster rockets for all I care.

The TT is not the drivers car the M3 is. The only car you mentioned that is a true replactement for the M3 or alternative would be the 911. If someone puts an emphasis on rear seats, the M3 still remains the choice.

The TT is cute, glad Audi is trying. I wonder if it will be anywhere near an M coupe, lets not leap to the M3.

You are posting videos of other cars and expecting that to have some kind of relevance to the TT-RS? When you have the final specs, I'll be glad to remind you the M3 spanks it

Wow that video just shows that there is definitely at least one Japanese man in this world who is utterly clueless as to how to drive an M3. What was this amateur drag night at Tokyo speedway. Horrible videos, next time just go ahead and keep those all to yourself.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by matt beard

Wow that video just shows that there is definitely at least one Japanese man in this world who is utterly clueless as to how to drive an M3. What was this amateur drag night at Tokyo speedway. Horrible videos, next time just go ahead and keep those all to yourself.

Why are you quoting me in reference to the videos?

[Congoman775]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Yes, there are markets beyond the USA, just smaller ones. California just happens to be the worlds biggest. The car isn't available here so Audi can strap it with booster rockets for all I care.

The TT is not the drivers car the M3 is. The only car you mentioned that is a true replactement for the M3 or alternative would be the 911. If someone puts an emphasis on rear seats, the M3 still remains the choice.

The TT is cute, glad Audi is trying. I wonder if it will be anywhere near an M coupe, lets not leap to the M3.

You are posting videos of other cars and expecting that to have some kind of relevance to the TT-RS? When you have the final specs, I'll be glad to remind you the M3 spanks it

Ok.

may i remind you that the M3 was utterly outclassed and embarrassed by two cars in its price range being the Z06 and base GTR.

the M3 is a great car, but its not bulletproof.


ps. for people with enough money the RS6 is already available in the US