Massive deluge of 1M information (in that forum section)

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

From a performance aspect, a DCT is better. It shifts faster with little loss of power. It sorta contradicts the point of this car. If they offered a DCT though, the performance would be too close to an M3.

It seems that performance was put in the back seat, so too speak, to let "the driving experience" have the wheel. Had performance been the top priority, we probably would be looking at a spec sheet with significantly higher numbers than what we have seen.

Maybe BMW's press release was just an attempt to blow smoke up our arses. If in fact the point of the car is the maximization of "the driving experience" over straightline acceleration, how does DCT, which minimizes driver body motion relative to a manual tranny, bring the 1M closer to hitting the manufacturer's target of driving experience?

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I don't hate MTs at all. I have my own preferences. On DCT I usually comment from a defensive position as I have here. Almost all comments about the MT only in the 1M are things like "great no pussy automatic", etc.

BMWs choice on this is consistent with the cars overall design and goals. Not offering the DCT is also quite consistent with sacrificing performance for cost though...

Agree. ^^^ BMW is certainly concerned with maintaining price point separation between the 1M and the M3.

BTW, it's obvious that you don't hate MTs. Your earlier comment struck me as odd given the fact that for all that there is to dislike about the 1M, finding out that the car was going to be MT only would be its saving grace, IMHO of course.

[clar]

I was initially holding out for this 1M. However, with each leak of information concerning the car, i was getting more and more disillusioned. I was driving a 135i and didn't want to buy the same car twice. I have serious issues with BMW detuning the 1M to protect M3's tuff. Eventually, i decided to just get my E92 and live with its increased size.

[GoGeo]

I was disappointed mainly by the weight, it is just a pig of a car. The 1M would have been a winner at less than 3K lbs...
On the looks, I think that the car is a winner.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by southlight

No doubt about the first two points, but the last one is debatable. Personally, I expect BMW to modify the N55 engine heavily before it'll be considered 'M3-worthy'. Much like they did with the S63 engine for the X5/6M and M5/6.

I agree. I also expect a heavily modified engine, but nonetheless the same block and a large number of common components, which is a big change from the past.

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

From a performance aspect, a DCT is better. It shifts faster with little loss of power. It sorta contradicts the point of this car. If they offered a DCT though, the performance would be too close to an M3.

Not quite. A DCT with its advantages of more ratios, better ratios and faster shifts is equivalent to about 20 hp. The 1M would need an additional 40 hp so although a DCT would close the gap it by itself would not make the 1M very close or too close to the M3.

Originally Posted by clar

I have serious issues with BMW detuning the 1M to protect M3's tuff.

Although I see your point, what they are doing is not that at all. There won't be any detuning per se. To be much more accurate you would say that the motor in the 1M form does not extract the full potential of the design. But you can also say that about any production engine. It's not like the 1M engine exists in another car with some significant amount of power above and beyond the amount that will come with the 1M... and then they specifically detuned it. Other manufacturers such as MB actually do this.

[MDCTFTW]

Not a huge fan of the way the 1 models look. I feel like the 3 series to the 1 is similar to 4 Runner:Rav 4, MDX:RDX. The 1M is a bit better, but just ok.

It just looks smushed. Don't get me wrong, it probably drives really well it's just not my cup of tea.

[aus]

Originally Posted by southlight

No doubt about the first two points, but the last one is debatable. Personally, I expect BMW to modify the N55 engine heavily before it'll be considered 'M3-worthy'. Much like they did with the S63 engine for the X5/6M and M5/6.


Best regards,
south

All BMW really did was change the headers/downpipes a little, turned the boost up, and slapped an M badge on it.

I want to know if BMW increased the cooling capacity of these new "M" engines? The N54 was notorious for going in to limp mode with minimal time on the track.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

It would be close enough to stop M3 buyers. Why should someone pay 74k for a fully loaded M3, when the 1M coupe will surpass it when just a simple tune, all for less then 50k?

Not a bad point. The tuning potential of the 1M (if not super "encrypted") will be very good. However, comparing a relatively unloaded 1M to a loaded M3 is not a good comparison. The base M3 is pretty reasonably priced IMHO for the overall package you get.

Either way the DCT is not really the key, you almost for sure will be able to get more power from the 1M (certainly more power to weight) by just a tune alone.

I think BMW is not offering DCT more for simplicity, "return to roots" and prestige rather than based on any concern that a 1M with DCT would be too close in performance to the M3.

[zhangzeyuandss]

Originally Posted by southlight

No doubt about the first two points, but the last one is debatable. Personally, I expect BMW to modify the N55 engine heavily before it'll be considered 'M3-worthy'. Much like they did with the S63 engine for the X5/6M and M5/6.


Best regards,
south

well said, I think so too. M3 is M division Flagship. If they still want the M to stand for the automotive fans' wet dream, pretty sure they are not going to just put a slightly modified "N55is" sort of engine like they did for the 335is and z4si or even 1M. And it is going to be more powerful, possibly even with better turbos as well. That is for sure. And from a budgeting perspective, sharing more parts through multiple lines means saving the cost of manufacturing and increasing productivity(R&D, different machine to make different parts), this also means increase profit margin,and also keep it in mind, BMW is a profiting oriented car manufacturer not a automobile enthusiast car club that they can make the car purely based on performance numbers, there are more to the brand than just pure performance, the refinement elegance beauty of the design both interior and exterior , all these combined together is what makes this car brand so special .As a multinational corporation BMW have their own quote of sale that they had to make ,so BMW can't and will not spend all their money just to develop a unbeatable m3, so just keep the expectation in a medium level, not too high that you will be awfully disappointed when the car came out ,and not too low that you lost completely intereste over the waiting period ,after all we have more than 2 years ahead of us. and enjoy your NA v8 powered monster for now.

[jbtco]

Interesting to compare prices for Series 1 M with M3

As I live in Uk I am using UK prices (generally substantially higher than US but basic cars better specced), price differentials presumably similar elsewhere

Going by the info on Skidmarks.

OTR UK price of 1M £39,990
Nav (std on M3) £2,010
Elec seats (std on M3) £910
Total £42,910

As only 450 for UK unlikely to be any discounts

M3 (manual coupe)
UK OTR £53275
+ comp pack (for wheels) £3,315
less DCT (in comp pack not avaialable for 1M) £1,295

Discounts avaialable in UK for M3 around £4k

Total £51,295

Diff £8,385

1M seems expensive to me in comparison

[devo]

Originally Posted by aus

All BMW really did was change the headers/downpipes a little, turned the boost up, and slapped an M badge on it.

I want to know if BMW increased the cooling capacity of these new "M" engines? The N54 was notorious for going in to limp mode with minimal time on the track.

BMW did go on record to state that they added extra cooling to handle track duty. Engine aside, the M suspension components with wider track (fore and aft) and air curtain are a nice addition.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

See, that's the thing. I don't think BMW wanted to pin point the driving experience. The fact of the matter is, if they put a DCT in that car, it'll hurt M3 sales.

No doubt inclusion of DCT would hurt M3 sales to a greater or lesser extent, IMO. However, like everything else that is M, a year or two or three down the road typically involves an expansion of options available to a particular M model. So there's hope.

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

BMW stopped making cars that were about the "driving experience" when the "Joy" Campaign hit.

No disagreement here.

The "Joy Campaign" never impressed me in a positive manner. Maybe it's the word j-o-y that doesn't exactly seem to be a fit for what M has been about for the last quarter of a century. Whatever happened to thrill, exhiliration, or even satisfaction which is, afterall, a word that conveys a more subdued, understated sentiment that is complete; like BMW's/M's are supposed to be, right?

To me, a slogan such as Joy Campaign is more suitable for a scenario in which Nevada hookers face being put out of business by the state, and their opposition to such an action leads them to march in protest against the state of Nevada attempting to shut down the bordellos wherein they spread the joy to clients.

Back on topic: 1M verdict prior to driving...Fails in two major for me...(1) wt/hp ratio (4.4kg/hp) and (2) turbo.

[cmk227]

I just want MT for my next M3. I have own three M3, all have been manual and since I am not going to race anyone I will just keep enjoying the car and the road.

Please keep that option open going forward. Also the M1 looks great. It no M3 so don't plan owning one but it looks like a great little car.

My concern is the fact that we are starting to put M badge on everything. Pretty soon we will order a 328M because it comes with some M options. This will be terrible for our M and those of us that enjoy the prestige of driving an M. If the letter does not start with M (M3, M5, M6) it should not be an M (X3M, X5M, X6M) Period.

I hope BMW understand this.

[Krozi]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Oh yeah I forgot all the real drivers would be too busy gloating about their heel and toe expertise to care about that...

Pretty much...

[PKL]

Originally Posted by cmk227

If the letter does not start with M (M3, M5, M6) it should not be an M (X3M, X5M, X6M) Period.

I hope BMW understand this.

AGREED!

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Agreed. Absolutely. This even started to some extent with the E9X M3. Our engine IS the M5 V10 with 2 cylinders lopped off. A big change in practice but on the 3D CAD systems where the engine is designed the change is not much... Like the fellow above said - they want to sell more, have more commonality and have even better margins. Can't really do this with special engines for all cars, even Ms, unfortunately. We will have the only V8 M3, the last NA M3 and the last with its own engine just for it.

Great point about the S85/65 link.....something we all like to forget because the engines are so sweet, I guess we say "who cares if they are shared). Also, the few changes they did make to the intake on the S65 gave it a much more usable torque curve for around town then the S85 exhibited.....people think the S65 needs to be revved, that S85....sheesh, NOTHING under 5k.

Only problem is, ask yourself what has made ///Ms win so many head-to-head contests? Was it their value? Their performance numbers? Or was it that intangible feel and soul that the cars have while providing every day usability? I truly believe it was the latter and by dumping the design rule of creating "special" engines for their ///M cars, I think they will be losing their competitive advantage, and in the long run water down the brand, and ultimately, lower their bottom line.

I could be dead wrong (I am more often than not) and maybe I'm just unwilling to let go of the "good old days" but as a CEO and part owner of a successful company, I would never, ever, ever look at the forest and not the trees, something I think BMW is doing with their decisions surrounding engine choices of their ///M (I think FI in every day cars is GREAT). Many times, what improves your bottom line in the short run, can destroy it in the long run. It is why I don't believe in going public, because I don't want some random set of investors with no true understanding of my company's products and industry forcing us into bad short term decisions because all they care about is what their shares are worth over the next 12 months, not 12 years.

Sorry for the long winded opinion everyone.....

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I agree. I also expect a heavily modified engine, but nonetheless the same block and a large number of common components, which is a big change from the past.

+1.

Cheers,
e46e92

[IFX]

i think bmw has no idea wtf their doing.

I'm done with them after the e90M.

[mb1]

Agreed. These guys have completely lost their way and I'm mad about it!!

I'm with a lot of folks here. This 1M would be in my garage next year if it had a real M engine and not the lame N54. I don't miss my 335 since I have an E46 M3, a real M car. 6000 rpms, yuck. This is a HUGE disappointment.

The last BMW I'll probably buy is an e90 M3 for my wife, the last genuine M from what was a great car company.

I hate to leave BMW but they won't get any more of my money as long as they head in this direction. I guess the ultimate driving machine has given way to luxo joy. Leave fuel economy wars for the rest the line. I hope BMW reads these boards and misses our money enough to listen to their customers.

Originally Posted by IFX

i think bmw has no idea wtf their doing.

I'm done with them after the e90M.

[wrh3]

Unfortunately, enthusiasts don't make up the large percentage of buyers so they may not even miss our money.

4 out of 5 1-series owners thought their car was front wheel drive is an indicator of the demographic:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/03/24/bm...-think-its-fwd

When M division began rebadging SUVs, the writing was on the wall- M is no longer anything special.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by wrh3

When M division began rebadging SUVs, the writing was on the wall- M is no longer anything special.

This.

[cmk227]

Originally Posted by erhanh

This.

Sad to admit it but I think this is true.