Motorsport 24 S65 headers

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by leigh

do you think on a SC car they would make more power then a NA

I don't see any reason why they would. A s/c is not driven in any way by the exhaust.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by THE TECH

I don't see any reason why they would. A s/c is not driven in any way by the exhaust.

maybe better flow as its pushing more air out....maybe the stock ones are not big enough for lets say a vt650

(edit) but thats just a guess!!

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by leigh

maybe better flow as its pushing more air out....maybe the stock ones are not big enough for lets say a vt650

(edit) but thats just a guess!!

I really don't think so. Since the boost on a s/c is limited to the pulley that's on it, you won't gain by being able to get the exhaust out faster. I'm sure BMRLVR can provide all the correct info.

[pbonsalb]

Boost is a measure of restriction through the engine. Reduce the restriction and boost goes down. You may make the same power or more due to the improved efficiency. Raise the boost back up to where it was, and you should gain power.

I seriously doubt the stock headers are designed for optimum flow at 200 rwhp, 400 rwhp and 600 rwhp. Rather, they are a compromise, probably for flow in the 200 rwhp to 400 rwhp range. I think that if you are making 600 rwhp, gains could be had with larger or higher flowing headers, at some cost to bottom end power.

While my E36M3 was supercharged, I ran four different headers. While my testing was not scientific, the biggest headers made the most power and I did not feel like I sacrificed anything down low although I probably did. I was quite happy with whatever tradeoff there was.

While I pushed some small headers pretty far along the way, that did not mean they were perfectly fine and efficient at those power levels. It just meant that they still allowed me to make the power I was making. For a while, I was content with that, and then, as is usually the case with the predictable power curve of a centrifugal car, I got used to it and wanted more. That is what led me ultimately to the RMS headers with 1.75 inch primaries and a twin 2.375 inch pipe Supersprint Euro exhaust for my little 3.2L inline six making 466 rwhp at 16 psi (stock is about 210 rwhp).

I would like to see some dyno testing of these headers. On the S62 used in the E39M5, headers make a big difference. They have also been proven to make a difference on E36M3, E46M3 and most other cars. I would really be surprised if the E9xM3 headers are so good they cannot be improved upon at any power level.

The question is at what level. I certainly won't be buying even the $1400 Schmeidman headers expecting to add to my collection of naturally aspirated mods. If I had an ESS VT600, I think there might be gains. I am waiting for some of the "no expense spared" members to do some testing and share the results.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Boost is a measure of restriction through the engine. Reduce the restriction and boost goes down. You may make the same power or more due to the improved efficiency. Raise the boost back up to where it was, and you should gain power.

I seriously doubt the stock headers are designed for optimum flow at 200 rwhp, 400 rwhp and 600 rwhp. Rather, they are a compromise, probably for flow in the 200 rwhp to 400 rwhp range. I think that if you are making 600 rwhp, gains could be had with larger or higher flowing headers, at some cost to bottom end power.

While my E36M3 was supercharged, I ran four different headers. While my testing was not scientific, the biggest headers made the most power and I did not feel like I sacrificed anything down low although I probably did. I was quite happy with whatever tradeoff there was.

While I pushed some small headers pretty far along the way, that did not mean they were perfectly fine and efficient at those power levels. It just meant that they still allowed me to make the power I was making. For a while, I was content with that, and then, as is usually the case with the predictable power curve of a centrifugal car, I got used to it and wanted more. That is what led me ultimately to the RMS headers with 1.75 inch primaries and a twin 2.375 inch pipe Supersprint Euro exhaust for my little 3.2L inline six making 466 rwhp at 16 psi (stock is about 210 rwhp).

I would like to see some dyno testing of these headers. On the S62 used in the E39M5, headers make a big difference. They have also been proven to make a difference on E36M3, E46M3 and most other cars. I would really be surprised if the E9xM3 headers are so good they cannot be improved upon at any power level.

The question is at what level. I certainly won't be buying even the $1400 Schmeidman headers expecting to add to my collection of naturally aspirated mods. If I had an ESS VT600, I think there might be gains. I am waiting for some of the "no expense spared" members to do some testing and share the results.

Definitely great insight! I am hoping that more members give these headers a shot. Considering that the almighty Supersprint concluded that there isn't really anything worth doing for an NA S65B40, leads me to believe that any header won't make much of a difference in that sense. But as you said, I am curious at what level do the stock headers begin to get fairly restrictive?....

The E39 M5 and E46 M3 are probably some of the worst headers I've ever seen on a BMW...especially the E39 M5, haha. Looking at some photos of the S65B40 headers, they're definitely no where has poorly designed as other M cars have been. Either way, I want to see someone make a stepped-longtube header for our cars with big 3" mid-pipes...simply for auditory pleasure

[pbonsalb]

But the E46M3 headers are pretty good looking headers, and they can be improved upon. It does look like BMW has been getting better, since the E9xM3 headers are really nice looking. The question is the power level at which the gains outweigh the drawbacks enough to justify the cost. I agree it probably is not 400 rwhp. But it might be 600 rwhp.

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I am waiting for some of the "no expense spared" members to do some testing and share the results.

[M3PO]

The OEM headers are designed to strike a balance between good flow and good scavenging at the stock power level/exhaust flow rate. Big diameter primaries will give you good flow and reduce pressure losses. But if they are too large, the exhaust gas velocity is too slow for good scavenging. The best design will maximize both flow and scavenging.

It's very possible that improvements can be made when you greatly increase power and therefore exhaust flow rate. A slightly larger primary may be beneficial for example.

Headers can affect cylinder and valve temperatures also, which can effect timing, which can affect power.

[klammer]

Now this is a conversation with merit... Please continue...

[m3an]

Originally Posted by flipm3

Definitely great insight! I am hoping that more members give these headers a shot. Considering that the almighty Supersprint concluded that there isn't really anything worth doing for an NA S65B40, leads me to believe that any header won't make much of a difference in that sense. But as you said, I am curious at what level do the stock headers begin to get fairly restrictive?....

The E39 M5 and E46 M3 are probably some of the worst headers I've ever seen on a BMW...especially the E39 M5, haha. Looking at some photos of the S65B40 headers, they're definitely no where has poorly designed as other M cars have been. Either way, I want to see someone make a stepped-longtube header for our cars with big 3" mid-pipes...simply for auditory pleasure

while some nice long tubes would def build some torque the OEM design doesn't really seem like a shorty design; more of an equal length (correct me if I'm wrong) I would love to say there is room in the merge collector design, but really the stock headers are a work of art, as are the s85

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by m3an

while some nice long tubes would def build some torque the OEM design doesn't really seem like a shorty design; more of an equal length (correct me if I'm wrong) I would love to say there is room in the merge collector design, but really the stock headers are a work of art, as are the s85

The S85 headers are a work of art? They don't look like it to me.

http://www.evosport.com/product/prod...VO.EXH.B60.H01

[flipm3]

This is a work of art....an expensive work of art.

Evolve Automotive S85B50 Tubular Headers!








Evolve Automotive S62B50 Stepped Longtube Headers!

[m3an]

Originally Posted by flipm3

This is a work of art....an expensive work of art.

Evolve Automotive S85B50 Tubular Headers!








Evolve Automotive S62B50 Stepped Longtube Headers!

Damn I hope you're on Evolve's payroll

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by m3an

Damn I hope you're on Evolve's payroll

Haha...most definitely not. Just a very big fan of the work they do and have done with my cars.

If only they can make headers for the E9X M3 that actually benefit both NA and FI application.

[m3an]

they def build some real nice stuff. Once this platform gets a little older I think you'll see more experimentation w/ softer prices.

[kawasaki00]

What is the primary diameter on the stock header?

[DrakeKemper]

Curious how many people have aftermarket headers now?

[lsmkr01]

Originally Posted by flipm3

If someone wants to try what looks to be awfully similar to the M24s at a fraction of the cost....

Buy the Schmiedmann S65B40 Headers. It's "only" ~$1400 compared to the M24's at $~3340-3700.

>>LINK<<

Dang... Those look great! I'd ceramic coat these at Jet Hot and take the heat shields off so they can kind of be seen.

[Longwong]

Those look great? Have you looked at the stock OEM headers? THey look the same or better.

All these are is an OEM copy and rebranding to sell something. How much R and D you think goes into a 1400 dollar set of headers? THey simply copied the design.

There is nothing at all to be had from headers. Supersprint even published this that they had try to make a set of headers and could not find any hp on the table so simply ditched the product and they are the king of headers and certainly would have done it as money to be made.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Those look great? Have you looked at the stock OEM headers? THey look the same or better.

All these are is an OEM copy and rebranding to sell something. How much R and D you think goes into a 1400 dollar set of headers? THey simply copied the design.

There is nothing at all to be had from headers. Supersprint even published this that they had try to make a set of headers and could not find any hp on the table so simply ditched the product and they are the king of headers and certainly would have done it as money to be made.

[highlandsM3]

Quote from Super Sprint

Supersprint Bonus Headers

Supersprint is well known for our industry leading performance headers development. We have established our credibility through extreme power gains brought by long tube, equal length manifolds such as the 5 into 1 one long tube headers for the M5 E60, the complete AMG range and most recently on Porsche GT3s and Lotus Evoras.

We developed headers both in 4-2-1 and in 4-1 headers, using different diameters and lengths. These were tested on road and race cars for an extended amount of time.

While there were some improvement at certain rpm ranges, especially with a ECU tune, we arrived at the conclusion that the OEM components were very well designed and built, and the power to cost ratio wasn’t good enough to make headers a good upgrade on this models. A supercharged engine will benefit from oversize headers, unfortunately we haven’t been able to test any on our dynamometer.

As in the tradition of Supersprint, we don’t offer a component unless it brings a concrete improvement on the car, being it in performance, sound, looks or all three at the same time!

http://supersprintlabs.com/portfolio...bonus-headers/


I have wondered wether the stock manifolds have a ceramic coating. I can get a set coated for aroung $300, should help under bonnet temps. Last summer, track season, Adelaide set a record for number of days in a row over 45 degrees celcius. 17

[MilehighM3]

The factory tri y setup will provide better torque than a 4-1 long tube collector will. The last thing the M3 needs is less torque