E92 M3 or 911 C2S?

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by MegaLoL

What the hell are you talking about guys ??!! I drove a 997S, 997 4 and M3 is a better car. And I'm not talking about "usability", comfort etc. It's much easier and fun to drive than porsche for regular driver. Porsche is hard to drive really quick when you entering corners. You think everything is fine and suddenly front lives his own life. I'm talking about 2S. Carrera 4, 4S is a huge missunderstanding for pepople who know what is driving about. Sure porsche can go little faster on nordschleife, but you must be a Walter Rohrl. In other cases normal guy can go faster with more fantasy than any driver in 911. I was 2 weeks ago on nordschleife and I ate all GT3, Turbos, Z06 with my almost stock M3!.
In matter in fact I have more than 600hp porsche ruf in garage and DB9 and I like to drive mostly M3. It's a complete car. Anyone who is saying that 911 is a better car has little knowledge about how to be a good driver.

I agree with you 100%, a Porsche is much more difficult to drive fast. I do like a challenge though. I guess the good thing about buying a used car is if I get it and dont enjoy it as much as I think I will I can simply sell it and pick up a M3 or what ever I decide is next. With that said I havent made up my mind completely. Every time I see a E9X M3 I start to stare. They are such good looking cars and they are very will balanced and the engine is sublime. Its a tough call for sure. Im just going to have to drive them both and then decide. Thanks for your input.

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by SROC5

Depends, but basic things you'd have to upgrade if you plan to track semi often are brake pads, fluid, lines, and tires for starters. That's about $1,500 - $2,000 ish right there. If you get into the advanced levels, you can imagine costs on the seats, cage, belts, BBK, etc. on your own.

Definitely not going big enough to need a cage. Maybe seats and harness in the future.

[adc]

I also wanted to reiterate that you should aim for the 997.2, not 997.1. I drove them back to back and found the suspension changes significant, and for the better.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by KillerM5

Alright guys, I see that we have a lot of conflicting views. Lets reframe this discussion a bit. Lets assume I pick up a M3 based solely on the fact that I can get a 08-09 for a very reasonable price. How much would I have to invest to get it truly track ready. Now Im not talking about making it a dedicated track car but a car that can run with most cars on the track but can also be driven daily if I chose to. Thanks.

I'm been climbing the ranks at HPDEs (now second from the top in The Driver's Edge, which instructors tell me is one of the most hardcore HPDE organizers out there), but since my M3 is still my daily driver, I'd prefer to drive a street car on the track than a track car on the road -- so I've limited myself to mods that won't affect the car's road behavior. Since it sounds like you're in the same boat, I can tell you what I've done so far under that restriction, and you may be surprised how far you can still get. Note that you don't have to do all these things before you start tracking, and arguably you shouldn't, because the M3 is more than enough bone stock for beginners, and the most important mod by far is the driver. This is just a list of what became issues for me (in order) and how I addressed each one as I progressed in skill.

First up is always, ALWAYS brake fluid. I boiled my brake fluid my first time in the M3 in the dry (second track weekend ever). I switched to Castrol SRF and haven't had a problem. It's very expensive at $80/bottle compared to the ATE twins (Type 200 Amber / Super Blue) and Motul at around $15-25/bottle, but those fluids should really be bled every quarter or every 3-4 track days to continue performing well, whereas Castrol SRF's ridiculously high WET boiling point means you can just flush it every year (NOT every 2-3 years like stock fluid) without any bleeds in between. Since I don't do my own brake fluid work, I figure the extra cost of the fluid is more than offset by the savings on professional labor.

Next up will be brake pads. How far you can go as a driver on stock pads will depend mostly on how brake-intensive the tracks you run are and how hardcore the HPDE organizer is in terms of how it defines intermediate and advanced, but you will probably be in intermediate when you start getting frustrated by brake fade. I was, and in addition to brake fade I had severe steering wheel vibrations under braking on the road after a track weekend in the intermediate group. My mechanic/instructor said that was because the stock pads are more prone to overheating, and then they deposit all that extra heat into the rotors, and those two factors can cause warping and/or uneven pad deposits -- and rather counterintuitively, a more aggressive pad can actually be GENTLER on rotors overall because it will be better at dissipating heat rather than just depositing it right back onto the rotor. Ultimate Service hooked me up with new pads and rotors, but I knew they wouldn't continue doing that after every track weekend, so since then I've been running StopTech Street Performance pads as a combo street/track pad and love them. They bite harder and resist fade longer on the track while remaining silent on the street and retaining OEM dust levels and almost OEM cold bite levels; the cold bite isn't quite as good as stock, but it's not drastic; you quickly and just learn to leave a tiny bit of extra distance in front of you for the first few stops each morning. The pad wear rate is a bit faster than I'd have hoped, but they're very inexpensive, so I can live with that. For reference, I get 6-8 track days plus regular driving before the fronts are below 50%. You can keep running them on the street below 50%, but you probably shouldn't track below that point (and may not pass a tech inspection at that point) because less pad material means more heat buildup, which means worse brake performance and even faster wear rate.

After that I got camber plates. I'd planned to wait until getting dedicated wheels+tires for that, but I'm currently running Pilot Super Sports full-time, and after my sixth track day (by which time I'd driven 7K total miles on the tires), the outside edges of both front tires had been worn down to the cords. 7K miles was a little faster than I wanted to be going through front tires, especially since the rest of the tires otherwise had tons of tread left, so I got Vorshlag camber plates installed to increase the front camber from -1.1 stock to -2.3 (with 1/16" toe-in) and hopefully reduce the load on the outer edges of the fronts during hard cornering while also giving me a bit more grip: win-win! I could have gotten to -2.6 with these plates, but not without more toe-in than I wanted. Vorshlag's plates are adjustable so you can have a street camber (to wear more evenly on the road) and a track camber (for better grip), but my mechanic/instructor told me that unless I have dedicated track tires, I should just leave it in the more aggressive setting full-time because the accelerated wear on the inside of my tires from that added camber when driving on the street will be offset by the accelerated wear on the outsides when cornering at the track. It's too early to tell how the tires will wear, but I did feel a bit more grip on the track, which was quite welcome especially if it's also preserving my tires overall.

Those mods alone will probably get you pretty far along. At this point what you'd do next would depend a lot on how you drive and what tracks you're on. But your skill by this point should be such that you could probably use more brake bite (which would be dedicated track pads), increased brake fade resistance (which would be BBK), or more grip, which would be dedicated track wheels and tires, either extreme summer tires (AD08, RS3), competition tires (NT01, Pilot Sport Cup), or full Hoosier/Michelin slicks. HOWEVER, if you go with tires, the added grip from those tires will probably end up overwhelming your brakes if they weren't overwhelmed already, especially since the M3 doesn't have great brake cooling, in which case you'd probably be forced to buy a BBK immediately to cope with that anyway. I was mindful of that and wasn't ready to buy everything all at once, so even though more grip from dedicated wheels+tires would be more fun for me (and less expensive upfront), I recently ordered the StopTech ST60 front BBK; I left the rears stock because StopTech's own site argues that rear BBKs are often unnecessary and even counterproductive on front-engined cars. A BBK means my car will be ready for wider and grippier rubber when I'm ready to buy it, and also make pad swaps absurdly easy, which in turn makes using dedicated track pads much more accessible (and saves money in the very long term on pad swap labor). My track brake setup will be PFC08s in the front and keeping my Street Performance pads in the rear; I've read the rear braking is so little that keeping a "street plus" pad back there on track should be fine, and that way I don't have to deal with a more complex swap back there all the time.

After that will be dedicated track wheels+tires, I'm thinking APEX EC-7 18x10 ET25 wheels all around running 265-275/35/18 tires; width depends on the tire I'm trying, but I'd use the same size all around. A square setup dials out some of the built-in understeer, and APEX tells me that that setup will fit in a stock M3 without any rubbing issues. And after that I'm done! I'll have a very capable track machine and won't have affected my car's road manner whatsoever.

The only other popular remaining mod would be coilovers such as the KW V3s, but I have EDC and love the adjustability it provides on the road, and I've read that the V3s make the ride permanently feel like Sport mode, which is WAY too harsh for my taste on regular roads and thus violates my restriction of keeping my car's current road feel.

[donovan]

The Porsche will handle a tad better and miles better in gas mileage, however the sound of that V8 in the e9x is very sexy as well.

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I'm been climbing the ranks at HPDEs (now second from the top in The Driver's Edge, which instructors tell me is one of the most hardcore HPDE organizers out there), but since my M3 is still my daily driver, I'd prefer to drive a street car on the track than a track car on the road -- so I've limited myself to mods that won't affect the car's road behavior. Since it sounds like you're in the same boat, I can tell you what I've done so far under that restriction, and you may be surprised how far you can still get. Note that you don't have to do all these things before you start tracking, and arguably you shouldn't, because the M3 is more than enough bone stock for beginners, and the most important mod by far is the driver. This is just a list of what became issues for me (in order) and how I addressed each one as I progressed in skill.

First up is always, ALWAYS brake fluid. I boiled my brake fluid my first time in the M3 in the dry (second track weekend ever). I switched to Castrol SRF and haven't had a problem. It's very expensive at $80/bottle compared to the ATE twins (Type 200 Amber / Super Blue) and Motul at around $15-25/bottle, but those fluids should really be bled every quarter or every 3-4 track days to continue performing well, whereas Castrol SRF's ridiculously high WET boiling point means you can just flush it every year (NOT every 2-3 years like stock fluid) without any bleeds in between. Since I don't do my own brake fluid work, I figure the extra cost of the fluid is more than offset by the savings on professional labor.

Next up will be brake pads. How far you can go as a driver on stock pads will depend mostly on how brake-intensive the tracks you run are and how hardcore the HPDE organizer is in terms of how it defines intermediate and advanced, but you will probably be in intermediate when you start getting frustrated by brake fade. I was, and in addition to brake fade I had severe steering wheel vibrations under braking on the road after a track weekend in the intermediate group. My mechanic/instructor said that was because the stock pads are more prone to overheating, and then they deposit all that extra heat into the rotors, and those two factors can cause warping and/or uneven pad deposits -- and rather counterintuitively, a more aggressive pad can actually be GENTLER on rotors overall because it will be better at dissipating heat rather than just depositing it right back onto the rotor. Ultimate Service hooked me up with new pads and rotors, but I knew they wouldn't continue doing that after every track weekend, so since then I've been running StopTech Street Performance pads as a combo street/track pad and love them. They bite harder and resist fade longer on the track while remaining silent on the street and retaining OEM dust levels and almost OEM cold bite levels; the cold bite isn't quite as good as stock, but it's not drastic; you quickly and just learn to leave a tiny bit of extra distance in front of you for the first few stops each morning. The pad wear rate is a bit faster than I'd have hoped, but they're very inexpensive, so I can live with that. For reference, I get 6-8 track days plus regular driving before the fronts are below 50%. You can keep running them on the street below 50%, but you probably shouldn't track below that point (and may not pass a tech inspection at that point) because less pad material means more heat buildup, which means worse brake performance and even faster wear rate.

After that I got camber plates. I'd planned to wait until getting dedicated wheels+tires for that, but I'm currently running Pilot Super Sports full-time, and after my sixth track day (by which time I'd driven 7K total miles on the tires), the outside edges of both front tires had been worn down to the cords. 7K miles was a little faster than I wanted to be going through front tires, especially since the rest of the tires otherwise had tons of tread left, so I got Vorshlag camber plates installed to increase the front camber from -1.1 stock to -2.3 (with 1/16" toe-in) and hopefully reduce the load on the outer edges of the fronts during hard cornering while also giving me a bit more grip: win-win! I could have gotten to -2.6 with these plates, but not without more toe-in than I wanted. Vorshlag's plates are adjustable so you can have a street camber (to wear more evenly on the road) and a track camber (for better grip), but my mechanic/instructor told me that unless I have dedicated track tires, I should just leave it in the more aggressive setting full-time because the accelerated wear on the inside of my tires from that added camber when driving on the street will be offset by the accelerated wear on the outsides when cornering at the track. It's too early to tell how the tires will wear, but I did feel a bit more grip on the track, which was quite welcome especially if it's also preserving my tires overall.

Those mods alone will probably get you pretty far along. At this point what you'd do next would depend a lot on how you drive and what tracks you're on. But your skill by this point should be such that you could probably use more brake bite (which would be dedicated track pads), increased brake fade resistance (which would be BBK), or more grip, which would be dedicated track wheels and tires, either extreme summer tires (AD08, RS3), competition tires (NT01, Pilot Sport Cup), or full Hoosier/Michelin slicks. HOWEVER, if you go with tires, the added grip from those tires will probably end up overwhelming your brakes if they weren't overwhelmed already, especially since the M3 doesn't have great brake cooling, in which case you'd probably be forced to buy a BBK immediately to cope with that anyway. I was mindful of that and wasn't ready to buy everything all at once, so even though more grip from dedicated wheels+tires would be more fun for me (and less expensive upfront), I recently ordered the StopTech ST60 front BBK; I left the rears stock because StopTech's own site argues that rear BBKs are often unnecessary and even counterproductive on front-engined cars. A BBK means my car will be ready for wider and grippier rubber when I'm ready to buy it, and also make pad swaps absurdly easy, which in turn makes using dedicated track pads much more accessible (and saves money in the very long term on pad swap labor). My track brake setup will be PFC08s in the front and keeping my Street Performance pads in the rear; I've read the rear braking is so little that keeping a "street plus" pad back there on track should be fine, and that way I don't have to deal with a more complex swap back there all the time.

After that will be dedicated track wheels+tires, I'm thinking APEX EC-7 18x10 ET25 wheels all around running 265-275/35/18 tires; width depends on the tire I'm trying, but I'd use the same size all around. A square setup dials out some of the built-in understeer, and APEX tells me that that setup will fit in a stock M3 without any rubbing issues. And after that I'm done! I'll have a very capable track machine and won't have affected my car's road manner whatsoever.

The only other popular remaining mod would be coilovers such as the KW V3s, but I have EDC and love the adjustability it provides on the road, and I've read that the V3s make the ride permanently feel like Sport mode, which is WAY too harsh for my taste on regular roads and thus violates my restriction of keeping my car's current road feel.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Im surprised that you havent done sway bars? That was by far the best $ spent on my E60 M5. Yes its a much larger car but the difference was so immediate I assumed it would be the same in the M3.

Once again thanks for all the info and have fun on the track!!!

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by adc

I also wanted to reiterate that you should aim for the 997.2, not 997.1. I drove them back to back and found the suspension changes significant, and for the better.

Thanks!!!

[bholloway]

Originally Posted by MegaLoL

What the hell are you talking about guys ??!! I drove a 997S, 997 4 and M3 is a better car. And I'm not talking about "usability", comfort etc. It's much easier and fun to drive than porsche for regular driver. Porsche is hard to drive really quick when you entering corners. You think everything is fine and suddenly front lives his own life. I'm talking about 2S. Carrera 4, 4S is a huge missunderstanding for pepople who know what is driving about. Sure porsche can go little faster on nordschleife, but you must be a Walter Rohrl. In other cases normal guy can go faster with more fantasy than any driver in 911. I was 2 weeks ago on nordschleife and I ate all GT3, Turbos, Z06 with my almost stock M3!.
In matter in fact I have more than 600hp porsche ruf in garage and DB9 and I like to drive mostly M3. It's a complete car. Anyone who is saying that 911 is a better car has little knowledge about how to be a good driver.

Anyone who says that "Anyone who is saying that 911 is a better car has little knowledge about how to be a good driver" is pretty much completely ass backwards. Driven properly, a stock 911 s is a quicker and more capable car than a stock M3. If you're not as good of a driver the M3 might feel quicker because its easier to drive close to its limits.

But hey, if you're taking down GT3s and Porsche turbos with a stock M3 like MegaLoL here you've got to be a great driver... and definitely not playing Forza in a basement somewhere

[ThunderMoose]

I recently traded in my 2011 E92 M3 for an 2009 C2S. The M3 was a great car. It's got nice power. It's pretty comfortable (compared to the 911). That being said, the Porsche is such an amazing car. It's a lot more fun to drive. The styling is iconic. The other factor is that my track car is an E46 M3, so I didn't need a dual purpose car per se, but wanted a "fun" daily driver.

I have taken the 911 to the track once (on street tires) bone stock except for Motul 600. I was about 5 seconds slower than my E46 M3 at MSR-Houston (2.4 miles). I wasn't pushing it and I probably still don't really know how to track a rear engine car.

For a weekend car with some track duty, I'd definitely go with a 997.2 C2S.

[Rambler]

I'd also like to say thanks to JP for that wonderful write up. I will have to save that one for future reference since I also plan to keep my car as stock as possible while doing track days. thumbsup:

As for M3 vs C2s, I recently debated this and went with the M3. I really wanted just 1 car which was a major factor in my decision. I also think the M3 is a better looking car which is just my opinion of course. I also knew that with the C2S, it would be a short matter of time before I wanted a GT3 or 991S.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by KillerM5

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Im surprised that you havent done sway bars? That was by far the best $ spent on my E60 M5. Yes its a much larger car but the difference was so immediate I assumed it would be the same in the M3.

Once again thanks for all the info and have fun on the track!!!

Happy to do my part giving back to this forum for all of the help I've gotten.

I haven't done sway bars because nothing I've felt at my track weekends has made me want them, but even if that were to happen I probably wouldn't go for them because stiffer sway bars would harsh up my ride on the road, which goes against my goal of increasing track performance while maintaining the comfortable road feel. Even if I could find adjustable sway bars that gave a sufficiently noticeable improvement on track AND had a setting that retained the car's current road feel, getting under the car to adjust sway bars is a bit more effort than I want to deal with.

Originally Posted by Rambler

I'd also like to say thanks to JP for that wonderful write up. I will have to save that one for future reference since I also plan to keep my car as stock as possible while doing track days. thumbsup:

You're welcome! I think you'll be surprised just how much track performance you can get out of your car with fairly minimal modding, and all while still keeping the road feel you've gotten used to.

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Happy to do my part giving back to this forum for all of the help I've gotten.

I haven't done sway bars because nothing I've felt at my track weekends has made me want them, but even if that were to happen I probably wouldn't go for them because stiffer sway bars would harsh up my ride on the road, which goes against my goal of increasing track performance while maintaining the comfortable road feel. Even if I could find adjustable sway bars that gave a sufficiently noticeable improvement on track AND had a setting that retained the car's current road feel, getting under the car to adjust sway bars is a bit more effort than I want to deal with.



You're welcome! I think you'll be surprised just how much track performance you can get out of your car with fairly minimal modding, and all while still keeping the road feel you've gotten used to.

You should really consider the sway bars. The will not impact the ride quality at all for DD!! They will simply reduce body role and keep your car flat in corners. They also help keep the car in a straight line during hard acceleration. Not to mention what mod can you do that will improve handling for $600? You will not be disappointed!!!

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by KillerM5

You should really consider the sway bars. The will not impact the ride quality at all for DD!! They will simply reduce body role and keep your car flat in corners. They also help keep the car in a straight line during hard acceleration. Not to mention what mod can you do that will improve handling for $600? You will not be disappointed!!!

Hmm, well if the car rolls less for a given amount of side G forces, that means passengers would be pressed into the sides of their seats harder, which seems like it would affect DD feel -- though I guess it depends on how aggressively you drive with others in the car.

But I didn't realize they were relatively inexpensive, so I may look into it at some point. Honestly though body roll just hasn't been an issue for me. Maybe it's because EDC in Normal mode is great on tracks with elevation changes and/or it's just not as noticeable on the tracks I run (primarily TWS in both directions), but I have yet to find myself cursing my car for high body roll the way I did for spongy pedals, brake fade, and inordinately fast tire wear on the outsides that drove me to upgrade the underlying causes of those issues. But I appreciate the recommendation!

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Hmm, well if the car rolls less for a given amount of side G forces, that means passengers would be pressed into the sides of their seats harder, which seems like it would affect DD feel -- though I guess it depends on how aggressively you drive with others in the car.

But I didn't realize they were relatively inexpensive, so I may look into it at some point. Honestly though body roll just hasn't been an issue for me. Maybe it's because EDC in Normal mode is great on tracks with elevation changes and/or it's just not as noticeable on the tracks I run (primarily TWS in both directions), but I have yet to find myself cursing my car for high body roll the way I did for spongy pedals, brake fade, and inordinately fast tire wear on the outsides that drove me to upgrade the underlying causes of those issues. But I appreciate the recommendation!

For DD unless you are ripping through corners with passengers in the car they will make very little difference. Plus most are adjustable so you can set the car up soft for DD and the go to a more aggressive set up at the track. I had RD Sports and they are great. You can install them in your garage in an hour by yourself. Very simple mode. Try to find someone with sway bars and go for a ride. You will like it.

Turner has these, very similar to the RD Sports. Under $600!!
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-...-bar-kits.aspx

[adc]

Originally Posted by KillerM5

For DD unless you are ripping through corners with passengers in the car they will make very little difference. Plus most are adjustable so you can set the car up soft for DD and the go to a more aggressive set up at the track. I had RD Sports and they are great. You can install them in your garage in an hour by yourself. Very simple mode. Try to find someone with sway bars and go for a ride. You will like it.

Turner has these, very similar to the RD Sports. Under $600!!
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/BMW-...-bar-kits.aspx

If your experience has been with an E60, then the E9x might be a bit different. For one thing, the rear sway bar is very difficult to install, because it requires dropping the rear subframe.

If the car has springs and front camber plates, it should be good to go.

[MegaLoL]

Originally Posted by bholloway

Anyone who says that "Anyone who is saying that 911 is a better car has little knowledge about how to be a good driver" is pretty much completely ass backwards. Driven properly, a stock 911 s is a quicker and more capable car than a stock M3. If you're not as good of a driver the M3 might feel quicker because its easier to drive close to its limits.

But hey, if you're taking down GT3s and Porsche turbos with a stock M3 like MegaLoL here you've got to be a great driver... and definitely not playing Forza in a basement somewhere

Well your sarcasm is a typical reaction for someone who would like to drive quick but he can't:| Car won't help you much if don't know how to reach the limit and stay on it.
Have you ever driven 911 on the limit? I have. Like I wrote earlier you can go faster, but you must have schumacher surname or at least some not a common skills. If you are late with reaction, there is a hell much more difficult to do something to not make a mistake if you already haven't made. You must be aware all the time, cause there is a quite big chance that front of the car will suprise you. If you know how to drive 911, so you probably know now, that you can stem this pushing the throtle. Then the rear will kick on, but if you be too late and you must know that reaction with 911 must be quicker than you be able to think what to do. Once you start to think, you are already too late and in best case you will only "pass" the spin After such a lap on limit with regular 911/S you will feel, that your mind is much more tired if it's not exhausted than the same very quick lap in M3. M3 is much more forgivable and easier to drive quick. 911 can be fast car no doubt on track, but it's not better than M3. If you drive clean and properly in 911 you will make good time and you will be happy, but some guy will drive in his M3 more bravely and he will be quicker. And he won't have to be close to the limit with his M3 while you have to be on the limit with 911 to be a quicker. Not to mention, that M3 are better built than 911 997. It will handle more than 911.

P.S I have just started uploading my onboard from ring, specially to send you a link to show you how I was playing with some fast cars. And if it's not good enough for you, then I will send you really quick lap where I'm still overtaking faster cars than M3

[KillerM5]

Originally Posted by adc

If your experience has been with an E60, then the E9x might be a bit different. For one thing, the rear sway bar is very difficult to install, because it requires dropping the rear subframe.

If the car has springs and front camber plates, it should be good to go.

I didnt realize that the install on the rear is a pain. I did a quick read on it and I would probably have my shop install it for me. Even with that additional cost sway bars are still going to be one of the cheapest mods you can do to improve handling. The reality is the E9x M3 is still a heavy car and does have a fair amount of body role. The sway bars will help reduce that.

[MegaLoL]

Here you go.

At the very beginning is GT3.2 and this guy drives really quick as you can see it after he pass me. Later little fun begins at 4 min.

[L4ces]

Originally Posted by MegaLoL

Here you go.

At the very beginning is GT3.2 and this guy drives really quick as you can see it after he pass me. Later little fun begins at 4 min.

Good stuff.