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07-12-2008, 03:29 PM | #45 |
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I am glad I now have some free time to surf again....
Japanese car companies have long "underrated" power. Look at the older generations of Mitsus and Scubby's. There was some convention for these guys to keep under 300hp for some strange reason. Also, I believe you can use SAE certification to underrate an engine's performance by making certifying an engine's performance at an RPM below peak power. So long as an engine can deliver x hp at y rpm, it is immaterial that the engine can actually do more. I don't know why the Japanese car companies do it but this is long been discussed.
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"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
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07-12-2008, 03:34 PM | #46 | |
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Please swamp, ask others before commenting on something you don't know about. |
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07-12-2008, 09:20 PM | #48 | |
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I think my friend Swamp is taking issue with your comment that there has been no innovation by BMW M vs. cough Porsche, MB, Nissan, Audi. The E30M3 definitely set a high bar but by every performance metric each generation of M3 was faster. Having a favorite in the E30 is just that, it was your personal favorite. My favorite 911 is still the 993 but the 996 and 997 are faster. BMW innovated with awesome powerplants like the E36M3 Evo2 engine, the S54 was the best 6 banger, the V10, and now the V8....
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07-13-2008, 12:40 AM | #49 | |
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07-13-2008, 01:14 AM | #50 | |
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You can knock Quattro all you like but the reality is that it provides more grip than rwd and it's more versatile. Whether is saps the amount of power you bleive it does is up for debate but the only thing I will agree on is it's lack of involvement and entertainment. |
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07-13-2008, 02:17 AM | #51 | |
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Like Clarkson said, you can make the R8 dance. Powerslides in an AWD car, with ease. The car is really amazing. From 1:10 in the video: |
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07-13-2008, 02:20 AM | #52 |
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I knew those french were a bunch of lying frogs!!!!!
(Renault owns Nissan)
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Fore Sale Rare 6 speed manual X3 3.oi silver over grey. PM me
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07-13-2008, 04:20 AM | #53 | |
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I never said the M3 "hoses" the R8. You are WRONG. I said they are neck and neck in most comparisons with some tracks showing the R8s prowess. A Z06 vs. an M3 in a outright performance battle - now that is a true hose down. Does me saying something so painfully obvious really make you that happy? You don't know squat about why I post and why I reply to anything you post, don't flatter yourself. Go spend some more time with your IS buddies on a Lexus forum talking about Audis, Vettes and GT-Rs. That is your CLEAR pleasure... Oh wait, much better to do that on a BMW forum. |
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07-13-2008, 07:14 AM | #54 | |
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For what it does the M3 is great at but it's no supercar destroyer simply because it's doesn't have the looks or class to complete with such cars. |
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07-13-2008, 10:12 AM | #55 | ||
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07-13-2008, 11:02 AM | #56 | |
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Easy to fall in the love the E30 M3 but on every performance metric, braking, acceleration, cornering the E36 was better and then the E46 and then the E92. Your personal statements about no innovation from M is just plain wrong and designed to provoke argument. Hence my comments about Audis..... Best Audi innovation is marketing around Quattro.....where understeering into a tree is good.
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07-13-2008, 12:06 PM | #57 |
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Swamp,
If the M3 had the GTR badge and the GTR had a M3 badge, you would be singing a completely different tune and so would I. |
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07-13-2008, 12:34 PM | #58 | |
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Best regards, south
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07-13-2008, 01:08 PM | #59 | |
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That is the difference I see between you and me. I try to be honest with myself and acknowledge my biases rather than try to deny them or defend them and ultimately hide behind them. No patronizing laughing face needed. |
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07-13-2008, 01:34 PM | #60 |
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Every car is a set of compromises. The current M3 provides high performance both in a straight line and through the twisties while presenting itself in a polished, desirable package. But let's revisit the compromises...
BMW trades outright performance for refinement in the M3. The Nissan GT-R has NVH insulation, a fairly nice interior, etc., etc. It's simply a different machine with a different end in mind - which is why it's different than the M3. That said, the motoring magazines are in almost unanimous agreement that the M3 outdoes the most direct competitors - the outgoing RS4, the new C63 AMG, and the IS-F. And of course there's the infamous C&D comparo... their opinions mirror my own - I too like the BALANCED compromise that BMW has struck with the M3's luxury and performance. |
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07-13-2008, 01:38 PM | #61 | |
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Best regards, south
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07-13-2008, 01:48 PM | #62 | |
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You are missing my point about the E30, sure the more recent models since it have got quicker, grip harder and brake better but all of these things are down to the technology of more advanced engine designs, better braking systems and greatly improved tyre compounds than actual imprvements is chassis design. It's the other thing that are missing that made the E30 such a enjoy and the others (including the E92) less so. You also have to remember that unlike all other M3 models, the E30 was is limited homologation run for racing, it was basically a racer for the road and that was felt in it's steering and chassis balance. Think about what I originally said, BMW has for the last twenty years been chasing their tail, trying to get back the thing that made the E30 great, it's driver involvement and incredible finesse. In comparison Audi and Mercedes had only one way to go which was up, their replacement versions have always improved the breed, but the same can't be said for the M3 or the M5. Quicker does not necessarily mean better. P.S. Quattro is not the devil you make out TB, it has lots of merits both on and off the track, the difference is that it's nowhere near as enjoyable but it's devilishly quick all the same. |
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07-13-2008, 01:57 PM | #63 | |
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The E30 is so good largely because of the weight. This is a whole different era....like sex without condoms. Cars are roomier and safer now....can't go backwards. What would you pick saftey + weight or a lighter car for the street? Also the E30 had primitive rear suspension.
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07-13-2008, 02:30 PM | #64 | |
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Performance wise the M3 and R8 and neck and neck. Some contest in some test go to each car. Look at our database and look at the tests. They are certainly close enough in straight line performance that it is a drivers race. On some tracks the R8 can out handle the M3. When you factor in the absurd price of the R8, in my opinion as an overall price to performance value the M3 does indeed HOSE the R8. There can't be all that much disagreement on this topic. |
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07-13-2008, 02:31 PM | #65 |
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07-13-2008, 03:24 PM | #66 |
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The GT-R is obviously the E92 M3's direct competition. Two door coupe with four seats and similar price point... anyone? Those who deny it are deluding themselves or scared. The GT-R is simply a super car performance bargain.
Love the R8, difficult not to. A mid engine beauty with performance to boot. However, when compared to the M3, the car is expensive. Yet, it is selling very well due to limited production and the panache factor. Panache is very important to sports car aficionados and can be a very expensive desire indeed. The M3 performs almost as well in spite of it's higher mass and front engine design. It also has a slightly better motor which is saying something considering the greatness of Audi's 4.2 litre. |
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