Active Autowerke VS ESS SC real world comparison video

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by akh23456

Because i don't street race Drew. i am more worried about the honks that anything else which you failed to copy. I never bragged about the win and i didn't even post this thread if you see mine it say A quick run in with another M. If i wanted to brag don't i think i would has said AA VS ESS kit and AA wins.

If you were wrong by mistake it happens man but u know and i know i havn't lied about anything yet. Pretty simple.

OMG you are annoying, you don't street race? LIE, there is a video of you in this thread doing so, you said I was referring to 8100-8300 RPM, LIE, at least in your interpretation it would be construde as a lie. I'll go ahead and be a rational, civil, logical person and conclude that you were just mistaken in your comments and you weren't trying to intentionally manipulate data because you own a AA kit, but in your case it vastly changes the points you're trying to make, yes it is incredibly simple.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by biglare

Akash, sounds like you are just full of excuses. Yaaahhhh, let's post a video of of you beating lower hp cars and then boasting about it! Or is it lower boosted cars and then boasting about it? Whatever, why don't you put up some dyno's with the boost displayed on them? Maybe it's because you have change blowers and then turn up the boost to finally make a video against cars that have less hp and less boost. Just stop making excuses and meet up M33. He'll be glad to come to you and then you both can go Dyno after with the boost captured as well, but I'm sure you'll come up with other excuses. So sad.

I don't know what's wrong with you. Very lame posts here. Except Andrew and Roman who arguing about their products (which they should, this is their source for paying bills, taxes etc...) everyone else (M33, DLSJ5, img, AK etc...) keep things civil and do technical discussion (I'm in the 4th page) without disrespecting each other.

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by Soorena

I don't know what's wrong with you. Very lame posts here. Except Andrew and Roman who arguing about their products (which they should, this is their source for paying bills, taxes etc...) everyone else (M33, DLSJ5, img, AK etc...) keep things civil and do technical discussion (I'm in the 4th page) without disrespecting each other.

No disrespect here I believe they are all nice kits built with different goals in mind.

I can only speak for our kit but we tried to make an all around high horsepower kit with the end user in mind. Most of our clients daily drive their vehicle and stuck in the low to midrange where power matters the most to them.

In the end we are all Bmw fanatics and should treat each other with respect and an open mind.

[akh23456]

I agree i have always said all the kits are nice i just prefer AA from experience .Sorry Drew if we had any hard feeling. A Boosted M is a way to go doesn't matter what company you go with. Its time for us M guys to Join up and rape all the other car companies.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

In the end we are all Bmw fanatics and should treat each other with respect and an open mind.

Very true. BMW community has downgraded in the past few years, but even at the worst scenario which we are very far from, every person should respect other individuals.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

If anyone in the Miami area would like to come down to the shop and feel how capable a fast spooling low and midrange m3 is in 95% of your driving situations. Let me know.

I would disagree that those are the optimal power ranges for guys or gals who run Superchargers on the S65.

[erm324]

All I have to say is wait until you see the videos of Zims VT2-650+meth against me in a 600rwhp Z06 (custom head, cam, throttle body, fast lsx mani, headers, full catless ehxaust, intake, custom dynotune, upgraded fuel rails, injectors, intake/exhaust valves, fullybuilt rear end, stage 3 clutch, etc....). EXTREMELY impressive to say the least The car is good for 140 traps and hes on my tail within 2 cars and he had a passenger and pump gas - and I was rowing through the gears like an animal

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

I would disagree that those are the optimal power ranges for guys or gals who run Superchargers on the S65.

I respect your opinion some may like a little extra power from 7-8k rpm.


My daily driver is a n55 135i which has tons of low end and midrange up top it kind of falls on its face compared to the n54 twin turbo.

Would I trade my quicker spooling instant tq and hp for an extra 15-20 whp at redline when my daily commute is red light to red light? Not a chance!
To lose 20-40 wtq where I use it the most would be a bad decision based on my needs and wants.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

I respect your opinion some may like a little extra power from 7-8k rpm.


My daily driver is a n55 135i which has tons of low end and midrange up top it kind of falls on its face compared to the n54 twin turbo.

Would I trade my quicker spooling instant tq and hp for an extra 15-20 whp at redline when my daily commute is red light to red light? Not a chance!
To lose 20-40 wtq where I use it the most would be a bad decision based on my needs and wants.

lol, I would say the majority want it were it counts at WOT, shifting through the gears, but let's just agree to disagree on that.

If you want send me the DJ files of your highest dyno's, we can compare them to the ESS Vortech setups, both on Meth or without so we can see the actual difference.

It's quite clear form the vid that an AA Stage 2+ will pull a VT535, but I think what flip did with his comparo was a good idea, however overlaying them properly would be a better way to see the difference.

Dyno stuff is not the end all be all, but since we've had a long discussion and at times it's gone off track, my apologies to AK, then let's keep it technical. I'll try and have something put together with the files that are already available now. Let me know if you want to send files of the dyno you posted or what is available.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by erm324

All I have to say is wait until you see the videos of Zims VT2-650+meth against me in a 600rwhp Z06 (custom head, cam, throttle body, fast lsx mani, headers, full catless ehxaust, intake, custom dynotune, upgraded fuel rails, injectors, intake/exhaust valves, fullybuilt rear end, stage 3 clutch, etc....). EXTREMELY impressive to say the least The car is good for 140 traps and hes on my tail within 2 cars and he had a passenger and pump gas - and I was rowing through the gears like an animal

Where can I see this video?!?!?!?!

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

lol, I would say the majority want it were it counts at WOT, shifting through the gears, but let's just agree to disagree on that.

If you want send me the DJ files of your highest dyno's, we can compare them to the ESS Vortech setups, both on Meth or without so we can see the actual difference.

It's quite clear form the vid that an AA Stage 2+ will pull a VT535, but I think what flip did with his comparo was a good idea, however overlaying them properly would be a better way to see the difference.

Dyno stuff is not the end all be all, but since we've had a long discussion and at times it's gone off track, my apologies to AK, then let's keep it technical. I'll try and have something put together with the files that are already available now. Let me know if you want to send files of those dyno you posted or what is available.

I, too, would love to see a nice technical data analysis of an AA Stage2+ and ESS VT2-625. WinPEP7 > Photoshop CS5

EDIT: Same DynoJet and same day would be ideal, haha. We all are now very aware of the VT2-625 and AA Stage2+s in Miami. Someone make it happen!

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by flipm3

I, too, would love to see a nice technical data analysis of an AA Stage2+ and ESS VT2-625. WinPEP7 > Photoshop CS5

Haha, you actually did a pretty good job!

[IMG]

Originally Posted by erm324

All I have to say is wait until you see the videos of Zims VT2-650+meth against me in a 600rwhp Z06 (custom head, cam, throttle body, fast lsx mani, headers, full catless ehxaust, intake, custom dynotune, upgraded fuel rails, injectors, intake/exhaust valves, fullybuilt rear end, stage 3 clutch, etc....). EXTREMELY impressive to say the least The car is good for 140 traps and hes on my tail within 2 cars and he had a passenger and pump gas - and I was rowing through the gears like an animal

How many buses did you put on me again? haha
That thing is out,too bad my passenger said,"Izzy slow down plz" we were getting up there quick

[IMG]

This thread is getting deep !

[m33]

Originally Posted by Soorena

I don't know what's wrong with you. Very lame posts here. Except Andrew and Roman who arguing about their products (which they should, this is their source for paying bills, taxes etc...) everyone else (M33, DLSJ5, img, AK etc...) keep things civil and do technical discussion (I'm in the 4th page) without disrespecting each other.

I don't mean any disrespect by when I call someone out to run!
Don't tell me your not curious to see how your car stacks up to the competition

I'm just simply eager to run a AA , VF & Gintani ( If they still exist ) or any other supercharged e9x M3 to see how my kit compares...

[Vegas_Sirk]

Originally Posted by flipm3

I think people should appreciate the way you constructed this post. Not trying to downplay or criticize anyone's product.

What this video shows is actually how good both kits really are. It clearly shows the strengths of the AA Stage 2, as well as, how great of a deal the VT1-535 is. Finally, one can visually see the benefits of running meth.

I don't see any need for anyone to turn this into something that it's not intended to be.

Thanks for sharing the video.

EDIT: It must be noted that the Grey E92 M3 also is supposedly on big 20" wheels which we all know are giant anchors, especially at rolling speeds. I heard he put down awesome 1/4mi times on 19s.

On a roll 20" wheels will not be much of a factor it's only from a stand still

[Brian_VACsales]

Sooooooooo, anyone run quicker than 10.69 yet? :-|

[DLSJ5]

Here's some more stuff to chew on guys, I didn't put this all together so I can't speak for everything posted here, but it seems makes sense. This was sent to me from Robert (PG), and he gave me permission to post it, personally I could never put something together like this, lol, so thanks to Robert. If anyone notices any incorrect info feel free to point anything out, also it would be better if the files from the graphs that flip posted were available.

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

If you notice the cars will read a higher boost level when the air is colder in the intake. Manifold design, intercooler design, methanol injection, compressor cover size/flow and cam timing can all affect the way boost pressure is made. If you dial out some overlap from the cams you can get the car to register almost 2 more lbs of boost. Does it make power? No, it loses power, but it's higher boost. Boost doesn't matter, flow matters.

These are all really good and valid points, but there's still some holes in my understanding why this isn't a valid comparison..

Boost levels cannot accurately be compared between two very different systems and blowers.

The way I understand it, boost is a measurement of manifold pressure whether it's HKS, Vortech, or any other blower. In the simplest sense boost is the amount of air POTENTIAL that can flow into the engine. If you make X power with more boost, then as you said, it's a reflection of manifold design and tuning. When the same boost (same amount of air potential) doesn't yield same power output, to me it's a reflection of blower efficiency, manifold efficiency, kit efficiency, and tuning efficiency.

Both AA and ESS are subject to the same tuning constraints of the ECU, and same physical constraints of VANOS design, head design, cams and headers. So the same things that work against you equally work against ESS. So comparing boost allows us to compare design efficiency. Both our kits are rated at 625chp, but the outcome on the dyno, track, and vbox results are vastly different from each other.

Do you have a white paper or anything that might better explain your point of view? Maybe I'm thinking about it all wrong, but so far I don't think so.

Comparing HKS to Vortech
Here's a few graphs that will bring home this point. If you compare equal outcome (same whp), then no doubt the HKS blower makes more torque than the Vortech blower. But look what it takes to get there: 2+ PSI more boost. If you compare equal boost (air potential), then the you will see exactly the opposite. You will see that the HKS blower does not outperform or out torque the Vortech anywhere on the RPM band.

Comparing equal outcome
The first graph are two cars on the same dyno. These cars were dyno'd only 24-hours apart on the same dyno, same gas, and same weather. The dyno was run exactly as per AA's instructions to the car owner with AA on the phone dictating the instructions how they wanted it ran and time between runs. There's no room for excuses with the outcome. Since Akash wants to talk about "area under the curve," we can look at those as well.

AA Stage-2 +Meth: 7.7 PSI boost, CA-91 Octane, 6MT, +Meth, Akra EVO exhaust. Output: 465whp. TQ Area: 1652403 sq units (2900-8200 RPMs). Temp: 73d-F, Baro: 30.09 inHg, Hum: 28%. Rating: 625chp.

ESS VT1-535: 5.6 PSI boost, CA-91 Octane, 6MT, NO-METH, Akra EVO exhaust. Output: 465whp. TQ Area: 1598878 sq units (2900-8400 RPMs). Temp: 77d-F,Baro: 30.20 inHg, Hum: 24%. Rating: 535chp.





Note: Area under the curve advantage: HKS +3.35%.


From this point forward, all comparisons are kits are rated at 625chp. Unfortunately there is no perfect comparison like the one above. AA has rated their 625chp kit with 93 octane OR 91+Meth. The example above meets the 91+Meth criteria. The ESS kit is rated 625chp with 93 octane NO-METH. So I guess that's the best place to start.

Comparing equal boost or comparing equal rating

I'm trying to compare equal boost here, but frankly so few dyno's are generated with boost logs that it's a hard thing to do. The two ESS examples I have are near the same boost: 7.4 PSI and 7.2 PSI respectively. Even though it's lower than the 7.7 PSI measured on the AA kit, it's the only thing I've got to make the comparison. Even though it's close, it's not a true apples to apples comparison because both ESS cars are running CATLESS whereas the AA car is not.

This first car was running 93 octane, CAT delete, and Encore Innovation exhaust. The boost log didn't come from the dyno, but instead came from a video inside the car with the camera aimed at the tachometer and digital boost gauge. To ensure accuracy, the boost gauge was calibrated as per manufacturers instructions between each dyno run.

AA Stage-2 +Meth: 7.7 PSI boost, CA-91 Octane, 6MT, +Meth, Akra EVO exhaust. Output: 465whp. TQ Area: 1652403 sq units (2900-8200 RPMs). Temp: 73d-F, Baro: 30.09 inHg, Hum: 28%. Rating: 625chp.

ESS VT2-625: 7.4 PSI boost. 93-Octane, 6MT, CAT Delete, Encore exhaust. Output: 594whp. TQ Area: 1911408 sq units (2900-8400 RPMs). Temp: 63d-F, Baro: 29.50 inHg, Hum: 8%. Rating: 625chp.





Note: Area under the curve advantage: Vortech +15.67%.

The second car is running a mix of CA-91 octane and 100 octane to get a blend of approximately 95 octane. METH is installed and used in this example. It's not exactly apples to apples because the gasoline is higher grade in the ESS car, and it has a CAT delete...but also a stock muffler working against it.

AA Stage-2 +Meth: 7.7 PSI boost, CA-91 Octane, 6MT, +Meth, Akra EVO exhaust. Output: 465whp. TQ Area: 1652403 sq units (2900-8200 RPMs). Temp: 73d-F, Baro: 30.09 inHg, Hum: 28%. Rating: 625chp.

ESS VT2-625: 7.2 PSI boost. 95-Octane, DCT, CAT Delete, Gintani X-Pipe, Stock exhaust. Output: 586whp. TQ Area: 1909834 sq units (2900-8400 RPMs). Temp: 88d-F, Baro: 29.00 inHg, Hum: 16%. Rating: 625chp (without meth).





Note: Area under the curve advantage: Vortech +15.58%.


Draw your own conclusions
All of the examples above are independent dyno results by the car owners themselves (not company cars). All of the dyno files, boost logs, etc. are in the dyno database and are available for download, comparison, and verification.

Andrew, if you would like to supply your newer 8.4 PSI dyno .DRF files (graphs posted above), then I will be happy to repeat this again and generate a new set of comparison graphs.

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by Mike@VAC

Sooooooooo, anyone run quicker than 10.69 yet? :-|

Haha

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Mike@VAC

Sooooooooo, anyone run quicker than 10.69 yet? :-|

Good one Mike!

[m33]

Originally Posted by Soorena

I don't know what's wrong with you. Very lame posts here. Except Andrew and Roman who arguing about their products (which they should, this is their source for paying bills, taxes etc...) everyone else (M33, DLSJ5, img, AK etc...) keep things civil and do technical discussion (I'm in the 4th page) without disrespecting each other.

Originally Posted by erm324

All I have to say is wait until you see the videos of Zims VT2-650+meth against me in a 600rwhp Z06 (custom head, cam, throttle body, fast lsx mani, headers, full catless ehxaust, intake, custom dynotune, upgraded fuel rails, injectors, intake/exhaust valves, fullybuilt rear end, stage 3 clutch, etc....). EXTREMELY impressive to say the least The car is good for 140 traps and hes on my tail within 2 cars and he had a passenger and pump gas - and I was rowing through the gears like an animal

I almost threw her out the car lmfao !!! Bro ... Respect on that Z06 !! That shit is an animal !!!!
I held in pretty good IMO , I wanna have just 2 gallons of fuel and no passenger then see how I compare , I was 3/4 full on fuel & a 120lbs passenger.

[Brian_VACsales]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Good one Mike!

Trying to troll in a positive fashion - I just don't get why everyone goes nuts.

Obviously a 600+ kit will beat a low/mid/high 500 kit - its just common sense and LM/Akash expected nothing different.

I have experience with AA, ESS, and VF S65 kits and they are all solid solutions. They all perform as claimed, which is all you can ask of a supercharger kit. Each kit has its own unique selling points and people choose the right kit for them based on these points and real world results.

The REAL difference is the drivers/car/setup/etc. which seems to be a new theory for some of the late model BMW community. As a relative noob to the BMW community, I can say I've never seen such bickering in the other parts of the auto aftermarket. Ultimately, it comes down to the driver and how the car is prepped overall.

[JDM3]

Who cares about dynos, graphs and all this shit. All of us need a private track day at Atco to settle this. I think Akash's ride and mine (with or without meth) would be a very good run. Let make it happen this fall...