Body cam captures moments before Utah cop kills man

[Billup]

Originally Posted by kmarei

I wonder if a stun gun would be suitable
I know a gun works 100% of the time
But it seems excessive to deal with all situations with a gun
I mean that guy could have been a model citizen, and was having a bad day
Terminating his entire life for one act seems overkill
I don't know

Model citizens rarely go off the deep end. There are root causes for shit like this. There was a time where I wasn't a "model" citizen without a home. This jackass has a house and a fucking shovel, so fuck him for that. There are outlying reasons why people behave this way, a bad day is not one of them.

Let me know when you return to reality. If someone attacks ME, I will protect myself. I only have one life to live, and I'll be damned if I die by a fucking snow shovel, my family needs me more than that.

[kevinbahnz]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Reminds me of this:
(the operator is laughing)

thats crazy, I bet no one would believe him if he didnt have that dashcam video.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Billup

Model citizens rarely go off the deep end. There are root causes for shit like this. There was a time where I wasn't a "model" citizen without a home. This jackass has a house and a fucking shovel, so fuck him for that. There are outlying reasons why people behave this way, a bad day is not one of them.

Let me know when you return to reality. If someone attacks ME, I will protect myself. I only have one life to live, and I'll be damned if I die by a fucking snow shovel, my family needs me more than that.

If your family really needs you that much
A career in law enforcement isn't really the ideal job

So at the first hint of danger, just shoot any assailant
Hmm
Maybe this is an American thing I'll never understand.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by kmarei

I wonder if a stun gun would be suitable
I know a gun works 100% of the time
But it seems excessive to deal with all situations with a gun
I mean that guy could have been a model citizen, and was having a bad day
Terminating his entire life for one act seems overkill
I don't know

I'll take a shovel, you take a stun gun. let's see who wins.

I don't understand the questioning? When someone is coming at you with a deadly weapon, you combat that person with a deadly weapon.

There is a reason why cops shot that kid in St. Luis who was walking up on them with a knife. Tasers don't always work. So kid with knife comes up on cop, cop says stop or i'll tase you. Kid keeps coming, cop fires taser. Taser is ineffective and cop gets a knife to the neck. You want to tell his wife and kids that he died because he thought the guy with the knife was maybe just having a bad day?

I don't. Just like Bill said; normal, well adjusted, productive members of society don't attack cops with shovels.

It's lovely how some people go though life with rose colored glasses on, but it's just not like that out there. And i don't mean any disrespect by this because i truly believe that ignorance can be blissful. And i really do like how some people always view most everyone as a good person. I just wish they could realize that some people aren't so great after they have just proven they aren't so great via their actions.

My wife's friend runs a service based business. Her techs get a lap top, an iPad, and a smart phone supplied to them by the company. The kid quit after picking up his check and he turned in his equipment in a cardboard box and left. One of the other techs came to her and showed her his face book page which had a picture of the lap top, iPad, and iPhone destroyed, all beat to hell. Sure enough they were in the box, but totally destroyed. She says, "i just don't get it, he was such a sweet guy. Such a nice guy, i mean, never got mad, was always nice. Was just a good person." I opted not to smack her, but i shook her from the shoulders and told her that "good people" DON'T DO THAT KIND OF SHIT!!!

[Billup]

Originally Posted by kmarei

If your family really needs you that much
A career in law enforcement isn't really the ideal job

So at the first hint of danger, just shoot any assailant
Hmm
Maybe this is an American thing I'll never understand.

Technically you're from Egypt and those people have never protected their own people since the dawn of ages, so my argument is very much solidified that, yes my family needs me that much.


Yes, I will also shoot at any first hint of danger swinging a bladed shovel at me, or any weapon for that matter. Must make me pretty American to stand up for myself, eh? Protect my own life so I don't die at 24 years old, much like cops at 22 years old? I'm not going to be some pussy wanker twat that essentially waits for someone else to make a life altering move. If you want, then by all means man, go for it. Stand back.


Must be the Egyptian thing I'll never understand.

[MrPrena]

Exactly what Mr. Tonka said.

As for people who talks about Taser.....
Even with Taser Green cartridge XP (Extra Penetration), it might not penetrate 3 layers of clothings PLUS Carhartt Jacket. It might or it might not. It all depends on.

If he is swining the shovel, and shovel hits the prong/dart and/or wire, Police officer just wasted precious 3+ seconds to transition from USED taser to Sidearm.

If officer initially taken out of taser when suspect was verbally aggressive (before swining) the shovel, Taser X26 takes about 2 seconds to charge after being on, and using taser would be ideal. HOWEVER, some anti-cop turds will say officer took out the taser before the suspect was verbally violent.

Look at the YouTube video footage on Taser X26, and see how many seconds usually takes from off to on to get charged.

If suspect is swinging the sharp shovel, and I do not have time to spend good 4seconds of shovel beating to shoot em with taser. Also at that close distance, prong/dart spread is too minimal to even be effective.

(1sec to unholster+2sec to charge+aim and shoot at ideal situation)

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

That depends on a few things.

1. Is the cop equipped with a taser.
2. What kind of taser.

If he has not got a taser on his person, end of discussion.

If he does have a taser and it's the type that shoots two barbs, there are a few factors that come into play.

- Shovely Joe's jacket is too thick for the barbs to penetrate.
- You have to be a sufficient distance away from your target to allow the barbs to spread out. If they are attached to your skin too closely together, they may not close the electrical circuit and prove infective.
- Because a cop's pistol can sometimes be the only tool to defend his or her life, it is always going to occupy the side of the belt closest to the officer's dominant hand. That means the taser is going to be somewhere else on the officer's belt making it more difficult to get to in a situation when they are being attacked.


Further more, what's he going to after he's knocked you unconscious with that shovel. You assume he would run away. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread or another, what if he then proceeds to get the officer's gun. Now you have a possibility of a crazy bastard possibly shooting the officer, and if nothing else, will be out in public with a cop's stolen gun. Think he'll have a problem shooting you after he's just beat an officer unconscious or to death even?

As the general public we're conditioned by seeing these types of events on TV either in the media or in entertainment. The general public doesn't realize that there is no commercial break, or story of elderly woman being ripped off by gas station up next. There is no cut to the other story line in like in CIS. Things don't just stop after the "incident" is over. The incident can and often does continue on after the general public has lost interest, some times for days.

The offender will control the situation. The general public thinks that the officer is controlling the situation. That's not true. The suspect is controlling the situation. The officer is there 99 times out of 100 as a reactionary force. They were called to or witnessed something and are reacting to it. Every person involved in a police interaction 99.999% of the time has complete control over whether or not the interaction turns violent. I'm not saying there aren't some bad cops out there that do some outlandish crap, but by far and away the vast majority of cops are decent people and statistics show that even though the odds are against the cops, the majority of the time the interaction is peaceful unless the suspect chooses otherwise.

If Shovely Joe had calmed down, even after he called for back up, nothing (violent) would have happened. Up until the point in which he reared back with his shovel, he could have deescalated the situation and been alive today. But once he made a threatening move like that, no way the officer was not going to forcibly subdue him.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Billup

Technically you're from Egypt and those people have never protected their own people since the dawn of ages, so my argument is very much solidified that, yes my family needs me that much.


Yes, I will also shoot at any first hint of danger swinging a bladed shovel at me, or any weapon for that matter. Must make me pretty American to stand up for myself, eh? Protect my own life so I don't die at 24 years old, much like cops at 22 years old? I'm not going to be some pussy wanker twat that essentially waits for someone else to make a life altering move. If you want, then by all means man, go for it. Stand back.


Must be the Egyptian thing I'll never understand.

Egypt has been around for thousands of years
Has encountered hundreds of attackers, and it's still there, pretty much with the same borders. Add to that we're right smack in the middle of eons worth of civilizations warring, and battling each other. And that's pretty damn Impressive.
Compared to the U.S. that until 240 years ago was pretty much a non participant in world affairs.
So any comparison between Egypt and the US is pretty lame if you ask me
Let's talk in a few thousand years, if the U.S. is still around?

Well if "an Egyptian thing" is not resorting to using deadly force at the first hint of danger then Im glad I'm like that.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I'll take a shovel, you take a stun gun. let's see who wins.

I don't understand the questioning? When someone is coming at you with a deadly weapon, you combat that person with a deadly weapon.

There is a reason why cops shot that kid in St. Luis who was walking up on them with a knife. Tasers don't always work. So kid with knife comes up on cop, cop says stop or i'll tase you. Kid keeps coming, cop fires taser. Taser is ineffective and cop gets a knife to the neck. You want to tell his wife and kids that he died because he thought the guy with the knife was maybe just having a bad day?

I don't. Just like Bill said; normal, well adjusted, productive members of society don't attack cops with shovels.

It's lovely how some people go though life with rose colored glasses on, but it's just not like that out there. And i don't mean any disrespect by this because i truly believe that ignorance can be blissful. And i really do like how some people always view most everyone as a good person. I just wish they could realize that some people aren't so great after they have just proven they aren't so great via their actions.

My wife's friend runs a service based business. Her techs get a lap top, an iPad, and a smart phone supplied to them by the company. The kid quit after picking up his check and he turned in his equipment in a cardboard box and left. One of the other techs came to her and showed her his face book page which had a picture of the lap top, iPad, and iPhone destroyed, all beat to hell. Sure enough they were in the box, but totally destroyed. She says, "i just don't get it, he was such a sweet guy. Such a nice guy, i mean, never got mad, was always nice. Was just a good person." I opted not to smack her, but i shook her from the shoulders and told her that "good people" DON'T DO THAT KIND OF SHIT!!!

So you think snow shovel = gun?
Interesting
And in the video he smacked him with it
No use of the metal blade, so I would not consider that a deadly weapon

[Billup]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Egypt has been around for thousands of years
Has encountered hundreds of attackers, and it's still there, pretty much with the same borders. Add to that we're right smack in the middle of eons worth of civilizations warring, and battling each other. And that's pretty damn Impressive.
Compared to the U.S. that until 240 years ago was pretty much a non participant in world affairs.
So any comparison between Egypt and the US is pretty lame if you ask me
Let's talk in a few thousand years, if the U.S. is still around?

Well if "an Egyptian thing" is not resorting to using deadly force at the first hint of danger then Im glad I'm like that.

I knew that would get a rise of you.

My job here is done.

[san~man]

Originally Posted by kmarei

So you think snow shovel = gun?
Interesting
And in the video he smacked him with it
No use of the metal blade, so I would not consider that a deadly weapon

Thank god you're not in law enforcement, you'd probably be dead.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by kmarei

So you think snow shovel = gun?
Interesting
And in the video he smacked him with it
No use of the metal blade, so I would not consider that a deadly weapon

Yep, that's what i said. Shovel = Gun, exactly what i said.

The world doesn't work within the precise little compartments. Just because Gun > Shovel doesn't mean Shovel = Not a weapon. To an unstable person, a rake, book, chain, rock, stick, chair, and fork are all weapons that can potentially get them out of a free ride to jail. Even if that improvised weapon is used as just a tool to gain access to a more deadly weapon.

Even without a knock-out, a blow to the head, even with a plastic shovel can disorient someone enough for the person wielding the shovel to go after the disoriented person's gun.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by E39lolz

Now if this guy was of a certain color, protests and riots would arise in that area. Al Sharpton would rally up the troops and Obama would mention, "if I had a shovel on my footsteps of the White House". Guy got what he deserves.

Clearly Obama's fault.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by kmarei

I wonder if a stun gun would be suitable
I know a gun works 100% of the time
But it seems excessive to deal with all situations with a gun
I mean that guy could have been a model citizen, and was having a bad day
Terminating his entire life for one act seems overkill
I don't know

I don't know for certain, but I suspect stun guns do not work well, if at all, when heavy winter clothing is involved.

A stun gun certainly couldn't be trusted in this situation where the perp has a weapon with a pretty good reach. In this case if the cop tries a stun gun and it is not 100% effective immediately then the cop is dead because he doesn't get a second chance.

A cop buddy of mine says they don't use non-lethal unless they have backup that is ready with a lethal option. If non-lethal is not effective then you have just escalated with a bad guy that was not bothered by you non-lethal option.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by kmarei

So you think snow shovel = gun?
Interesting
And in the video he smacked him with it
No use of the metal blade, so I would not consider that a deadly weapon

Every fight that a cop gets into is a gun fight, because the cop brought a gun.

If a bad guy is coming at a cop it must be assumed that he is going to try to get the gun, and if he gets the gun the cop is dead.

A shovel is absolutely a deadly weapon in the wrong hands.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

I don't know for certain, but I suspect stun guns do not work well, if at all, when heavy winter clothing is involved.

A stun gun certainly couldn't be trusted in this situation where the perp has a weapon with a pretty good reach. In this case if the cop tries a stun gun and it is not 100% effective immediately then the cop is dead because he doesn't get a second chance.

A cop buddy of mine says they don't use non-lethal unless they have backup that is ready with a lethal option. If non-lethal is not effective then you have just escalated with a bad guy that was not bothered by you non-lethal option.

Exactly. If two officers responded to this call, you likely would have seen his partner with taser in his hand as soon as the perp started getting angry.

If he was carrying a taser of course.

[nagisak31]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Egypt has been around for thousands of years
Has encountered hundreds of attackers, and it's still there, pretty much with the same borders. Add to that we're right smack in the middle of eons worth of civilizations warring, and battling each other. And that's pretty damn Impressive.
Compared to the U.S. that until 240 years ago was pretty much a non participant in world affairs.
So any comparison between Egypt and the US is pretty lame if you ask me
Let's talk in a few thousand years, if the U.S. is still around?

Well if "an Egyptian thing" is not resorting to using deadly force at the first hint of danger then Im glad I'm like that.

Well then maybe you should go back to where you came from?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Egypt has been around for thousands of years
Has encountered hundreds of attackers, and it's still there, pretty much with the same borders. Add to that we're right smack in the middle of eons worth of civilizations warring, and battling each other. And that's pretty damn Impressive.
Compared to the U.S. that until 240 years ago was pretty much a non participant in world affairs.
So any comparison between Egypt and the US is pretty lame if you ask me
Let's talk in a few thousand years, if the U.S. is still around?

Well if "an Egyptian thing" is not resorting to using deadly force at the first hint of danger then Im glad I'm like that.

Controversy from a NEW law being proposed in 2012....

But yeah, Egypt, pinnacle of civilization.

Women in Egypt are fighting proposed laws that would permit men to have sex with their wives up to six hours after death.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Controversy from a NEW law being proposed in 2012....

But yeah, Egypt, pinnacle of civilization.

Stop that, you're making his precious civilized Egypt look bad.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Women in Egypt are fighting proposed laws that would permit men to have sex with their wives up to six hours after death.

If Rodney Dangerfield was still alive, there'd DEFINITELY be a joke there where the punchline is something like "sorry officer, I couldnt tell she was dead because it was no different than any other time".

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by san~man

You swing a weapon a an LEO, you're most likely going to regret the outcome. Simple.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by nagisak31

Well then maybe you should go back to where you came from?

so only people who like violence are accepted here?
didn't hear that one before

[nagisak31]

Originally Posted by kmarei

so only people who like violence are accepted here?
didn't hear that one before

No, just people who clearly post so many anti-American posts. For someone who hates "violence" oh so much, it's funny you still choose to live here. I wonder why. Afraid to go back and live in a cave?