A salutation to the M3 part 2, exit stage left

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by shift@red

you get what you pay for...and when you are buying an expensive and low production car, you are going to pay for it.go drive a GT2, or GT3/GT3RS and tell me is wasnt one of if not the purest and most exhilarating and magical cars youve ever driven.

You missed my point entirely. Yes, great cars cost money, but ALL cars are overpriced if one wants to get philosophical about it like the OP did. I'm not against paying - the OP was. It is what it is - that's all.

I've driven a few exotics, the most recent an F430, and various 911s over the years. I even had the Cayman S before the M3. But to be honest, nothing compares to the FF Crossle 45F I ran in FF1600 regional racing some years ago and then the Zetec 2000. THAT is exhilarating. Drove it at VIR in 2004 last. Zetec specs, 1190# w/ driver, 170hp, 8" front and 10" wide rear slicks, 2.8 lateral G's, about 400# downforce at 120mph, etc. Not for the faint of heart. After that, nothing comes close. Believe me. I'm in the M3 because I have a 2 year old son and need the space the sedan offers. In a few years, I'm back in a 911 or some light Porsche variant.

[lucid]

Congrats Ruff. Sounds like you settled on the right car for yourself. I wouldn't worry about the stereotypes, and what others make of you. Life's too short. Enjoy!

[ruff]

According to these mates, the little car that could faired pretty well against it's wicked big brother:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...ance_car_2009/

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Damn! Nice find. So for all of those who doubt the Cayman S...why did it win an unprecedented 2 times prior? And nearly won it all again!
Its funny that the R8 won because EVO mag had the GT3 beating out the R8 v10 in their recent comparo.

Magazines They need to sell!

[yemenmocha]

Congrats on your new Porsche!

[ihyln]

I would never buy a P car because then I'd have to bother spelling it correctly.

[ruff]

In regards to the 997 vs 987. Porsche engineers and their professional drivers know the 987 is the ideal in regards to chassis and platform design. With everything else being equal, a mid engine car can sustain more speed through a corner than it's rear engine counterpart. Simple physics mandates this conclusion.

It is no secret why the 987 has to be hamstrung with a less powerful motor than every itineration of the 997. The 997 is their Icon. If their Icon were to look weaker than the 987, then the king's ransom required to own Porsche's Icon would no longer be viable, except to the aging hard core Porsche-philes. A crumbling of the Porsche Icon could mean the death of Porsche as an auto manufacturer.

I use to believe the GT-R was the best supercar for the money and if one were to base it on msrp and performances figures alone, it remains so. Throw in the huge subjective side of the driving experience, where manic nirvana is occasionally reached, via a flood of dopamine, endorphins and enkephalins. If one adds the high cash overlay associated with supercar ownership and the dangers of driving one near the limit, then the GT-3 would be my financial catastrophe and drug pusher of choice.

[ihyln]

So this begs the question, when is BMW going to give us a mid or rear engine super/sports car? I think BMW can nail it but either the financial risk or lack of interest is holding them back (or both).

[ruff]

For kicks:

[consolidated]

I love those videos. My Cayman is going to it's new owner tomorrow, just took a last drive, first car I will truly miss having.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by consolidated

I love those videos. My Cayman is going to it's new owner tomorrow, just took a last drive, first car I will truly miss having.

Those videos are a riot - just for kicks is correct. What's taking the place of the Cayman?

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Those videos are a riot - just for kicks is correct. What's taking the place of the Cayman?

Spec Boxster racing in PCA and NASA. Not as fast as my CS but I'll be wheel to wheel in anger with 20 other drivers. Hopefully Cayman Spec racing will take off in a couple more years and I'll be back in one.

[ruff]

Lots of discussion on this board about Porsche vs BMW and how BMW could build a competitor to the GT3 if they wanted to.

One of the lamest arguments and biggest excuses every invented is I could do it if I wanted, but I don't want to. Bogus rhetoric that means absolutely nothing, other than they can't do it. BMW has basically been playing catchup to Porsche in the sports car arena from the get go. Now the M Division has jumped off the proverbial cliff in regards to watering down it's heritage by selling out. Bye bye hard core M Division fans as they jump ship to the enemy where Motorsport still means something beyond rhetoric. I am one of many examples and our numbers are growing. Nope, the M Division cannot build a viable GT3 competitor or they would. So they focus on instead on SUVs, Thats right, bloated whales for the track.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by ruff

Lots of discussion on this board about Porsche vs BMW and how BMW could build a competitor to the GT3 if they wanted to.

One of the lamest arguments and biggest excuses every invented is I could do it if I wanted, but I don't want to. Bogus rhetoric that means absolutely nothing, other than they can't do it. BMW has basically been playing catchup to Porsche in the sports car arena from the get go. Now the M Division has jumped off the proverbial cliff in regards to watering down it's heritage by selling out. Bye bye hard core M Division fans as they jump ship to the enemy where Motorsport still means something beyond rhetoric. I am one of many examples and our numbers are growing. Nope, the M Division cannot build a viable GT3 competitor or they would. So they focus on instead on SUVs, Thats right, bloated whales for the track.

You mean like Porsche focused on the Cayenne? Or how about the Panamera? At least BMW seems to have built a well performing, good looking SUV.

At the end of the day, all auto manufacturers are looking to increase their revenue and continue to survive, even if it has to water-down the mark. For you to think that Porsche is any different is ridiculous.

-SZ

[ruff]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

For you to think that Porsche is any different is ridiculous.

-SZ

They build the GT3.

[///FCB]

Originally Posted by ihyln

So this begs the question, when is BMW going to give us a mid or rear engine super/sports car? I think BMW can nail it but either the financial risk or lack of interest is holding them back (or both).

+1...I think its mostly the risk associated with the high investment needed..despite that I hope and think they will make the new M1!!!

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by ruff

They build the GT3.

Yes, they do and GT3s are badass (my next car). However, take a look at how many Cayenne sales Porsche had for 2008;Cayenne sales make up a large percentage of overall sales. This was done in order to diversify their product line and increase sales. All car companies do it and it's not because they are selling out, it is because they have to in order to survive. If BMW or Porsche has to build a few SUV to stay alive and keep selling cars like the ///Ms and GT3, I'm ok with it.


2008 Porsche Sales:

Model Month to Date Year to Date
Current Year Prior Year Current Year Prior Year
Boxster 104 255 326 484
Boxster S 57 183 178 323
Boxster RS 60 94 0 94
Cayman 112 296 440 666
Cayman S 134 302 499 740
Cayman S Porsche Design 24 0 104 0
ALL BOXSTER/CAYMAN 525 1036 1641 2213

911 Carrera Coupe 67 118 220 311
911 Carrera S 96 162 258 422
Carrera Cabriolet 51 114 139 272
Carrera S Cabriolet 87 162 261 418
Carrera 4 Coupe 11 25 37 66
Turbo Coupe 60 309 198 782
Carrera 4S Coupe 72 96 204 216
911 Targa 4 11 23 24 58
911 Targa 4S 46 46 117 135
Carrera 4 Cabriolet 13 37 36 93
Carrera C4S Cabriolet 71 142 196 309
Turbo Cabriolet 152 0 450 0
911 GT3 10 76 23 217
911 GT2 16 0 16 0
911 GT3 RS 10 52 25 70
All Carrera models (996) 0 1 0 2
ALL 911 773 1363 2204 3371

Cayenne Tiptronic 513 266 1366 409
Cayenne 11 2 31 4
Cayenne S 178 320 776 519
Cayenne Turbo 83 176 285 208
Cayenne Turbo S 0 3 1 371
Cayenne Titanium 2 110 3 1130
Cayenne GTS Tiptronic 364 0 445
Cayenne GTS 18 0 25
ALL CAYENNE 1169 877 2,932 2641

CARRERA GT 0 2 0 4

GRAND TOTALS 2467 3278 6777 8229

Certified Pre-Owned 678 609 1791 1511

[ruff]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

If BMW or Porsche has to build a few SUV to stay alive and keep selling cars like the ///Ms and GT3, I'm ok with it.

So M Division, where is my GT3, GT-R, SLS AMG, R8, Viper, LF-A or Corvette competitor? We are not talking about Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren here. But we are talking about Dodge, Lexus, Chevrolet, Audi, Mercedes and Nissan.

[murellus]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

You mean like Porsche focused on the Cayenne? Or how about the Panamera? At least BMW seems to have built a well performing, good looking SUV.

At the end of the day, all auto manufacturers are looking to increase their revenue and continue to survive, even if it has to water-down the mark. For you to think that Porsche is any different is ridiculous.

-SZ

have you ever driven a cayenne? imo porsche did more work on the cayenne than bmw has done on the x5 (not the x5 isn't good, but the cayenne is great for a SUV)

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by ruff

So M Division, where is my GT3, GT-R, SLS AMG, R8, Viper, LF-A or Corvette competitor? We are not talking about Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren here. But we are talking about Dodge, Lexus, Chevrolet, Audi and Nissan.

If you want an ///M that is as track oriented as a GT3, you can always by a factory e92 ///M racecar....although I don't think it is street legal.

The CSL e92 M3 would of been nice but that never came to fruition.

I understand your point and I too wish for a true GT3 competitor. However, consider that the GT3 is essentially a modified version of a standard 911; I wonder what the market is for a stripped down version of an M3?

...so no, there is nothing currently from BMW that directly competes with a GT3, GT-R, SLS AMG, R8, Viper, LF-A in terms of performance.

BMWs inability to launch such a product is not of question of their engineering capabilities but more of a marketing/product placement/current economy/demand issue.

Like Jeremy Clarkson once said, and I paraphrase, "Porsche has got to be the laziest design studios ever". I truly believe that BMW can develop such a product but current economic conditions or new strategic goals for the organizations may be preventing such a move.

BMW excels on many fronts, performance, luxury, elegance, etc and they don't have to focus on purely the performance factor. Porsche on the other hand does and considering that Nissan just spanked their ass, they need to get on the ball.

Much like the ///M3, which does many things well, BMW as a whole is very much the same way. Porsche does one thing well so you can see why they need to come out with a car like the GT3. I mean, they are certainly not a player in the luxury market, SUV market, motorcycle market, hybrid market or anything with more than two doors market. Considering that a $75k Nissan GTR can pretty much outperform just about their entire line-up, I see a reason for them to have a GT2 or GT3.

-SZ

[///FCB]

...considering that Nissan just spanked their ass, they need to get on the ball...

[ruff]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

BMW excels on many fronts, performance, luxury, elegance, etc and they don't have to focus on purely the performance factor. Porsche on the other hand does and considering that Nissan just spanked their ass, they need to get on the ball.

As long as BMW fanboys keep making excuses for BMW then BMW Will keep providing M yachts rather than attempt to develop a single competitive car for the track. Nissan spanked Porsche, yes, so you are also saying Nissan absolutely pummeled anything offered by the M Division. How hilarious is that?:

Originally Posted by ///FCB

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Porsche does one thing well so you can see why they need to come out with a car like the GT3. I mean, they are certainly not a player in the luxury market,

Panamera?

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

SUV market

Cayenne?

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

hybrid market

Cayenne and Panamera?

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

or anything with more than two doors market.

Again, Cayenne and Panamera?