Concensus on why no brake ducting

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by adc

That's not all you'll need
- you have to put the actual flex ducting in (so ducting plus SS clamps)
- connection diameter for these ducts seems to be 2.7" - not sure if you can find the correct duct for them, or if you have to fabricate a little slip-on adapter
- those ducts must exit somewhere in the wheel well area - if you don't have flanges & connects at that point, it means your ducts will permanently be attached to the backing plate - I think that's a little dangerous on a street car
- and finally, you'll need to figure out a way to secure the ducting in the wheel well area (suspension arms?), otherwise it might flop badly at high speed


I'm afraid there's no plug-n-play system available for these cars. Might be a business opportunity for someone to engineer a nice system - but then again how many people are truly interested? 20?

Yep I have a good idea of the materials needed to complete the job..Turner carries most of them but the backing plates for the rotors.

Once you've installed the ducts and the backing plates the hoses will be easy to install or take out depending on street use or track.

[ManAndMachine]

Originally Posted by Kurohouou

$600 For two little bits of fiberglass from what I can tell in the pictures. I mean I guess they are official BMW motor sports ones.. but why hasn't an aftermarket company made a mold and sold them for $100 for a pair?

Lol beats me..someone needs to make a replica of these for those who might be interested..

[Minator]

Brake fade on my car at Sebring with only ss lines and motul is noticeable...my stock pads are being pushed past their heat limit and fade in the afternoon sessions...so to the question....why no ducts?...or even as an option? I don't think the comp package cars have them? HELLO... comp package...that implies track usage. I read the DYI post on brake ducts for this car and the poster did a great job with little money spent...yea I like CF but $600 from turner for the motorsport editions and another $90 for the hose w/clamps seems extreme...and still no backing plate solution. I guess the GT-4 has the whole set-up but it is a race car. I was thinking that if I added ducts with cool carbon pads I might get a happy street /track combo?
or should I just pony up and go with the rs 19's....I do agree that less brakes equals faster laps..but you need to brake to have consistent entry speeds

[adc]

Originally Posted by KTM505SX

Lol beats me..someone needs to make a replica of these for those who might be interested..

No need - you can use aircraft aluminum flanges, like I did, with 20 min of tinkering with a dremel tool. I can send the templates to anyone interested.

Originally Posted by Minator

Brake fade on my car at Sebring with only ss lines and motul is noticeable...my stock pads are being pushed past their heat limit and fade in the afternoon sessions...so to the question....why no ducts?

No OEM pad will resist fade (and/or uneven deposits) regardless of anything else you do - IMO. Even with full cooling ducts the momentary temps attained during hard braking will simply melt the compound - cooling ducts help with heat dissipation afterwards but you will still see extreme spikes in temperatures during initial hard braking.

Just look at the full on race cars with ducts and everything, their discs still glow red on corner entry.

or should I just pony up and go with the rs 19's....I do agree that less brakes equals faster laps..but you need to brake to have consistent entry speeds

Pony up, and you should be ok.

When you become very fast and start using R compounds, you might need more, but most likely not before.

[///My5UV]

Originally Posted by adc

on some cars additional cooling ducts are required. (Just ask the E39 M5 guys).

Yeah, but it was cheap and easy on the M5... two cheap OEM plastic parts and an hour with a dremel. E90 looks to be a bit more work, but I'm looking forward to it. Too bad I won't have it for a couple laps on the Nordschleife, but I'll be taking it easy anyway.

Still, maybe bimmerworld would be able to come out with a plastic version of their $800+ carbon fiber ducts and aluminum versions of their $500 carbon fiber backing plates. The entire kit (flanges, hoses, clamps, backing plates) for the E36 was under $400. Dunno how much the tooling costs to set it up, but there are definitely more E36 trackday and club racing cars running around than E9x, but that will change eventually.

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by adc

No need - you can use aircraft aluminum flanges, like I did, with 20 min of tinkering with a dremel tool. I can send the templates to anyone interested.



No OEM pad will resist fade (and/or uneven deposits) regardless of anything else you do - IMO. Even with full cooling ducts the momentary temps attained during hard braking will simply melt the compound - cooling ducts help with heat dissipation afterwards but you will still see extreme spikes in temperatures during initial hard braking.

Just look at the full on race cars with ducts and everything, their discs still glow red on corner entry.



Pony up, and you should be ok.

When you become very fast and start using R compounds, you might need more, but most likely not before.

did you create a thread about your install? I searched and didnt find anything so I am assuming no

[Minator]

Yea...you right ADC...no OEM pad can handle that temp. spike..with or without cooling ducts....would you go with the rs 19s front and 7's on the rear for my stock rotors? thanks

[adc]

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

did you create a thread about your install? I searched and didnt find anything so I am assuming no

It's not complete perhaps, but will give you an idea...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402516

[adc]

Originally Posted by Minator

Yea...you right ADC...no OEM pad can handle that temp. spike..with or without cooling ducts....would you go with the rs 19s front and 7's on the rear for my stock rotors? thanks

I went with the same compound (RS19) on both front and rear.

I know some vendors are specifying "milder" compounds for the rear, as the ABS does something weird there (presumably if you leave DSC on?). But I went with the same compound and was glad too see that brake distribution seems same as stock (both by feel and pad usage).

The Pagids do cost a pretty penny, but if yo're cheap like me you can try finding a slightly used set in the classifieds. On the other hand, they wear much better than some of the other popular compounds (Carbotechs) and are very rotor-friendly, so in the end you spend about the same amount of money.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

Yeah, but it was cheap and easy on the M5... two cheap OEM plastic parts and an hour with a dremel. E90 looks to be a bit more work, but I'm looking forward to it.

It was cheap and easy because you just open them up in the wheel well somehow - they aren't ducted to backing plates if not mistaken.

What was discussed here is a solution that takes the ducting all the way to the rotor backing plate, which is a different animal IMO.

If you just want to open it up in the wheel well, you can follow the directions in my thread. Granted there is a bit of fabrication involved, but it's manageable - and you can be as fastidious or quick as you want, because the fender liners are cheap.

Too bad I won't have it for a couple laps on the Nordschleife, but I'll be taking it easy anyway.

If you're a novice on the Ring (or armchair Gran Turismo racer like me, which is the same thing ) then you will definitely not push all the way and the stock brakes will be more than adequate.

I had lots of fun there without pushing the envelope.

Still, maybe bimmerworld would be able to come out with a plastic version of their $800+ carbon fiber ducts and aluminum versions of their $500 carbon fiber backing plates.

Agreed.

If I wanted to, I could modify the OEM backing plate by riveting an aluminum flange to it. I just don't think it's warranted by my speed level, number of track days and OEM tires.

[Minator]

Thanks, adc..I think you right on target!

[///My5UV]

Originally Posted by adc

If I wanted to, I could modify the OEM backing plate by riveting an aluminum flange to it. I just don't think it's warranted by my speed level, number of track days and OEM tires.

Yeah, I only ever bother to install the duct all the way to the backing plate on my E36 if I'm putting on R compounds. Mostly because you have to pull the wheels to install them :-)

And yeah, I never did run duct to the hub on my E39... of course I never ran R comps on it, either.

You do have ducting to the hub on your M3, right? Can you turn the wheels lock to lock without pinching it?

[adc]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

You do have ducting to the hub on your M3, right? Can you turn the wheels lock to lock without pinching it?

No, I currently don't.

Just looking at the spacing, I doubt you could have one without pinching (but I could be wrong).


The best implementation would have a flat-ish plastic duct hugging the wheel liner. Perhaps a rectangular section duct? Hmm... I can think of some possibilities - I may experiment with that come summer.

[Doctor J]

getting a street car prepared enough to handle the abuse of track driving is like opening Pandora's box. If it's not the brakes, then its the tires, then its the suspension, then it's engine mods, then tranny mods -- and all of a sudden you have a car that isn't so great for the street any more

if you go with aftermarket pads -- you should get a set of dedicated track rims -- or else your stockers are going to get caked with red hot brake dust that will fuse to the rims and basically wreck them. Add onto that bits of melted rubber, wheel weights falling off, and constantly needing to rotate the tires to account for the differential tire wear you get from running on a counterclockwise or clockwise track.....it is a never ending battle of compromises

or.....you can just accept that it is a street car and not drive it 10/10ths and be happy the way it is

[Crimson92]

Originally Posted by adc

It's not complete perhaps, but will give you an idea...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402516

Very interesting

could you post pics from the inner fender lining and where it relates to the backing plate for the brakes?

Thanks.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

Very interesting

could you post pics from the inner fender lining and where it relates to the backing plate for the brakes?

Thanks.

I can post pics on the exit flange for the fender lining, but not how it relates to the backing plate (since I don't have one right now).

I'll try to take some pics when the weather mellows up a little (and perhaps when there's less salt in my fender liners).