So I just drove the F80 M3...

[clar]

What the hell? V6? Are u sure u know what u are buying?

Originally Posted by Gn1196

I am 100% totally attached to my E92 M3. Can't beat the S65's feel and sound. What a great achievement in engineering. I am totally against the idea of a V6 in the new M3/M4, piping sound thru the audio just sounds stupid, now we have a smaller engine offering with turbo's? No way I am ever buying the new ///M.

Then...I went to M School in Spartanburg, SC. Drove the hell out of the M3, M4, and M5 all day. Torque was amazing, handling was superb, brakes (carbon ceramic) wow, DCT was perfect, sound...not quite what I am used to but still sounds great (short clip attached from my trip...car sounds pretty good), and feel was world class.

Get's better...several laps with instructors wide open (makes you realize how much you suck as a driver!) and the levels the cars were pushed to was wild! What a great experience.

This is the new generation of ///M and they are fantastic cars. Great part was the ride home in my E92 was awesome, just a different feel.

My E92 is a coupe, don't need the 4 doors. For me the M4 felt better than the new M3...so I will be ordering the M4. I will be parking my E92 in the garage...why not have both.

[Gn1196]

Originally Posted by clar

What the hell? V6? Are u sure u know what u are buying?

Thanks...sorry 3.0L I6...point is missing 2...

[Thurman Murch]

I had both the E92 ZCP and F80...

For a long time, the E92 was the best all around car there was to me - most nostalgic and special feeling of recent (E46M is the right size and special too)

But when the S55 hooks up in those rare moments fuck it's fast - however I had the manual and always found myself in reverse than first - I am mega strong - and almost slammed into several cars behind me

One of the issues I have is that the PSS tire is rubbish... It's lighter but can't hold grip for shit. The PS2 and sport cup are better but I like the trofeo best. I have tested the BMW, Audi and Porsche (N) spec tires and the VAG tire has a softer/grippier compound than BMW even if the numbers don't say so. I think BMW star is better for longevity.

I have actually moved back the VAGP domain and there is a specific car that makes me forget all about BMWs. When I think of BMW I remember the E92 first and then I remember a pristine E30 I saw on the back of a trailer. This car has been discussed on some of the threads. To each their own.

I'm glad there is the F8X for those who want turbo and E9X for those that want NA. It would have been super cool if you could get a choice on a turbo option and an NA option.

Go for what you love even if you change your mind all the time. It just sucks to wait when you want to go back to the other version but can't because you have to pay down or wait for values to come back up.

[DKX4///M]

Keep in mind the redic emission standards palcedon newer cars. The lag the F8X has would be all but eliminated by opening the exhaust, you can safely do 5 things to a stock turbo car that add insane power and even more torque.

1. Open exhaust up (F8X prob has 3-4 Cats and various restrictions on a 6 cyl)
2. SAFELY add 3-5psi, and eliminate the boost taper that almost all OEM f/i have
3. Lean out a/f...Stock f/i always run rich factory to prevent knock...We all know a rich mixture is safer bc its harder to burn thus harder to detonate. But also causes long term damage to cylinder walls and robs a tremendous amount of power... (Catch 22 bc they actally are less economic, just destroy more pollution and unburnt hydrocarbons and NOX before it gets in our atmosphere LOL)
4. Advance Ignition timing by a few degrees, another safety "Build in"
5. Run higher octane fuel or meth injection.

Those 5 things done properly cost very little and are good for 150+ extra HP @ the wheels.

Now, Devils advocate "No replacement for displacement" Lower comp ratio(dynamic or static) and boost a 4.0 Liter s65 thats balanced enough to rev to 9k and geared to keep you within 1000 rpms of max power....The e9x would teach the f8x what power looks
like.

I have an e92 and am currently in the market to supercharge maybe even a full engine build. I built track cars for a living in my 20's and ike to believe i have the touch for picking the right COMBINATION of mods...

But Ive seen a few sexy m4s that ive been embarassed to pull up next. Obviously im conflicted LOL

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by DKM3Power

Keep in mind the redic emission standards palcedon newer cars. The lag the F8X has would be all but eliminated by opening the exhaust, you can safely do 5 things to a stock turbo car that add insane power and even more torque.

1. Open exhaust up (F8X prob has 3-4 Cats and various restrictions on a 6 cyl)
2. SAFELY add 3-5psi, and eliminate the boost taper that almost all OEM f/i have
3. Lean out a/f...Stock f/i always run rich factory to prevent knock...We all know a rich mixture is safer bc its harder to burn thus harder to detonate. But also causes long term damage to cylinder walls and robs a tremendous amount of power... (Catch 22 bc they actally are less economic, just destroy more pollution and unburnt hydrocarbons and NOX before it gets in our atmosphere LOL)
4. Advance Ignition timing by a few degrees, another safety "Build in"
5. Run higher octane fuel or meth injection.

Those 5 things done properly cost very little and are good for 150+ extra HP @ the wheels.

Now, Devils advocate "No replacement for displacement" Lower comp ratio(dynamic or static) and boost a 4.0 Liter s65 thats balanced enough to rev to 9k and geared to keep you within 1000 rpms of max power....The e9x would teach the f8x what power looks
like.

I have an e92 and am currently in the market to supercharge maybe even a full engine build. I built track cars for a living in my 20's and ike to believe i have the touch for picking the right COMBINATION of mods...

But Ive seen a few sexy m4s that ive been embarassed to pull up next. Obviously im conflicted LOL

Interesting post, DKM3. Many points that I would never loose interest talking about. I absolutely agree that if more serious professionals had engineered a reliable and robust turbo for the S65 it would teach the f8x what power looks like coming from a 4.0L especially if well balanced enough to rev to 9K. Without intention to throw discredit to those who tried, it is no easy feat, and it's not at the level of the typical tuner operation run by a couple of guys with dedication, passion and hands on approach. Supercharger yes but turbocharger it's exceeds the level of design expertise that requires real engineers that follow engineering design concepts and hard theorical understanding of thermodynamics etc far beyond putting a puzzle together and winging the rest. Maybe at some point turbo designs will be so common that some serious company will design a turbo for the s65. But for now we don't have one.
Another very interesting point you bring about, regarding a/f being too rich on stock f8x car, i think this applies to the s65 also !! i see all those s65 dyno that instead of looking like a triangle, look like a parallelogram due to a flat plateau above 7000 rpm, and when plotting a/f ratio shows engine running very rich near redline and hp coming much short of expectation. Then if you extrapolate the curve it confirms the engine ramp (slope) was comform to hp spec until it hits the plateau. Those discussions are usually all lost in dyno machines endless (and pointless) debates. I even sumised that bmw which now has telemetry control over our DME would be capable of reprogramming a/f targets maps (through some manufacturer software access protected back doors) to save itself from RB fail engine warranty claims. I know it's a bit far fetch but the technology is in place they could have done it.
To me the F8x M4/3 is not the car i want to compare to the M3 i think BMW never gave us the engine successor to the S65 and it makes little sense to try to compare it to a 3.0L tt, clearly a step backward. A reliable turbo on the S65 would completely close that debate. Emission regulations is only part of the reason, the other is that unlike Nissan who patiently perfected the GTR 3.6 L TT engine for supercar level output, BMW only took the 335is N55 engine and incrementally added Mitsubishi turbo scrolls (they are) with a huge dose of paranoia, lack of confidence and certainly far from trying to take a cutting edge leader position. It is a very conservative iteration of the N55 engine not even a motorsport engine. Some have said the S65 does not have more power to extract with a turbo. I think the team with sound engineering has not tried yet. One can only hope that with turbo becoming so prevalent, the technology for it will become so perfected that it will become a bolt on economically feasible in small volume. When and if that days come, F8x will be clearly less desirable than E9x M3's. But i think the successor to the F8x will probably be a more aggressive turbo design can we hope for a V8 high revving Turbo that would be the legitimate successor to the S65 ?

[loveskiing]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

Interesting post, DKM3. Many points that I would never loose interest talking about. I absolutely agree that if more serious professionals had engineered a reliable and robust turbo for the S65 it would teach the f8x what power looks like coming from a 4.0L especially if well balanced enough to rev to 9K. Without intention to throw discredit to those who tried, it is no easy feat, and it's not at the level of the typical tuner operation run by a couple of guys with dedication, passion and hands on approach. Supercharger yes but turbocharger it's exceeds the level of design expertise that requires real engineers that follow engineering design concepts and hard theorical understanding of thermodynamics etc far beyond putting a puzzle together and winging the rest. Maybe at some point turbo designs will be so common that some serious company will design a turbo for the s65. But for now we don't have one.
Another very interesting point you bring about, regarding a/f being too rich on stock f8x car, i think this applies to the s65 also !! i see all those s65 dyno that instead of looking like a triangle, look like a parallelogram due to a flat plateau above 7000 rpm, and when plotting a/f ratio shows engine running very rich near redline and hp coming much short of expectation. Then if you extrapolate the curve it confirms the engine ramp (slope) was comform to hp spec until it hits the plateau. Those discussions are usually all lost in dyno machines endless (and pointless) debates. I even sumised that bmw which now has telemetry control over our DME would be capable of reprogramming a/f targets maps (through some manufacturer software access protected back doors) to save itself from RB fail engine warranty claims. I know it's a bit far fetch but the technology is in place they could have done it.
To me the F8x M4/3 is not the car i want to compare to the M3 i think BMW never gave us the engine successor to the S65 and it makes little sense to try to compare it to a 3.0L tt, clearly a step backward. A reliable turbo on the S65 would completely close that debate. Emission regulations is only part of the reason, the other is that unlike Nissan who patiently perfected the GTR 3.6 L TT engine for supercar level output, BMW only took the 335is N55 engine and incrementally added Mitsubishi turbo scrolls (they are) with a huge dose of paranoia, lack of confidence and certainly far from trying to take a cutting edge leader position. It is a very conservative iteration of the N55 engine not even a motorsport engine. Some have said the S65 does not have more power to extract with a turbo. I think the team with sound engineering has not tried yet. One can only hope that with turbo becoming so prevalent, the technology for it will become so perfected that it will become a bolt on economically feasible in small volume. When and if that days come, F8x will be clearly less desirable than E9x M3's. But i think the successor to the F8x will probably be a more aggressive turbo design can we hope for a V8 high revving Turbo that would be the legitimate successor to the S65 ?

Well stated...good logical points without sounding "preachy"...
I really enjoy listening to good discussions with intelligent others.

[G80indy]

Next M3/4 will be a hybrid, based on the company trajectory

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Next M3/4 will be a hybrid, based on the company trajectory

Hybrid sounds like an upgrade? Properly implemented, it could provide torque fill to eliminate the lag in the S55, much like the P1.

[cmo_93]

The new C63 is head and shoulders better than the new M3/M4.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Hybrid sounds like an upgrade? Properly implemented, it could provide torque fill to eliminate the lag in the S55, much like the P1.

I don't think so. Gas engines are still the much cheaper and more familiar way to make fast cars for manufacturers. I expect the next iteration will improve on turbo technology and that's it. An electric motor is only complementary to NA engine, but not a TC engine. hybrid + turbo would be a complete mess to design and inconsistent power plant to drive. Expect to see pure electric Tesla type fast cars competing with TC engines but no hybrid in the performance car segment.

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by cmo_93

The new C63 is head and shoulders better than the new M3/M4.

based off of what?

[cmo_93]

Originally Posted by rjd598

based off of what?

My experience in both cars.

[blowfishup]

all i want it is carboon shaft !!!! damn that thing is crazy !!! I wish our E92 m3 came with stock for that thing !!!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Gn1196

I am 100% totally attached to my E92 M3. Can't beat the S65's feel and sound. What a great achievement in engineering. I am totally against the idea of a V6 in the new M3/M4, piping sound thru the audio just sounds stupid, now we have a smaller engine offering with turbo's? No way I am ever buying the new ///M.

Then...I went to M School in Spartanburg, SC. Drove the hell out of the M3, M4, and M5 all day. Torque was amazing, handling was superb, brakes (carbon ceramic) wow, DCT was perfect, sound...not quite what I am used to but still sounds great (short clip attached from my trip...car sounds pretty good), and feel was world class.

Get's better...several laps with instructors wide open (makes you realize how much you suck as a driver!) and the levels the cars were pushed to was wild! What a great experience.

This is the new generation of ///M and they are fantastic cars. Great part was the ride home in my E92 was awesome, just a different feel.

My E92 is a coupe, don't need the 4 doors. For me the M4 felt better than the new M3...so I will be ordering the M4. I will be parking my E92 in the garage...why not have both.

Problem with F80 sound is more the outside.

[S65B40YYC]

Originally Posted by krx927

I completely agree with everything that was said in this tread! After my test drive I was really happy with my E90 and seriously would not change for F80. Especially as I am tracking a lot.

Indeed my experience was greatly influenced with the basic difference of NA engines compared with turbos... I just do not like turbos. In F80 I really missed the surge of power at the end of the revs / or even worst last 2000 revs. I felt like driving bloody diesel, totally flat in the last 2k revs

Ive not driven the F8X M3/4 but I went from E92 M3 to E93 335i JB4 with DP's back to an M3. I hated the turbo engine experience especially the fact the car falls flat at 5,500rpm. I Loved the low end torque, the car was much faster than my S65 M3 but with a 6speed auto it sounded terrible! I guess I learned that I will have to stay with high revving naturally aspirated engines.

[///3dkn]

Originally Posted by kepler

Thanks for the review. I haven't driven the F8X. Don't feel the need since I already own and drive a real M3.

Burrrrrnnnn!

[Stunnerable]

I had the opportunity to jump into an F80 M3 from a 400whp e92 and I have to agree with some members on here; I absolutely prefer the all around experience of the e9X over the F80 in almost every measurable way. It's THE all around drivers car for real driving enthusiasts. The F80 captures a larger audience imho. It's fast! But it didn't make me fall for it. It was like awkward sex with a bitchy, smoking hot girl whereas the e9X was on point from the momentum I put my fingers in her.. Errr, drove her.

[rdoctor]

Originally Posted by Stunnerable

It was like awkward sex with a bitchy, smoking hot girl whereas the e9X was on point from the momentum I put my fingers in her.. Errr, drove her.

Nice LOL. Sums it up beautifully I haven't convinced one of my co-workers to let me drive his new F80-M3 but I've heard the exhaust inside and out at WOT and understand why it's so criticized. It really does sound like sh!t compared to the stock e92 M3. I'm sure there are some after market exhausts that will help it. The torque is exhilarating but I'll wait until I've actually driven one to comment on the driving experience.

[BoosTonian]

Had an e90 M3

Sold it for an f80

Sold it for an e92 M3.

That's all I have to say.

[8600RPM]

Originally Posted by MThree_driver

Had an e90 M3

Sold it for an f80

Sold it for an e92 M3.

That's all I have to say.

Ditto. And completely loving my 2nd e92 as much as my first which I put on 100k exciting miles. F80 never made me excited to drive in 6 months