Lightning Lap: M3 runs faster than Cayman S and 911 Carrera S

[graider]

Originally Posted by footie

At least I understood what you meant.

Looks is a personal thing, heck not everyone will rate the likes of Jessica Simpson that great looking.



OK, bad choice. But you get what I mean.

exactly.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by devo

I used the power seat option as a reference as well. Yeah, the center console is plastic but it doesn't look inferior to what BMW offers, just different. At the level I used for comparison, the cars are fairly similar. There may be subtle advantages each way for some minor stuff but nothing that would push a buyer either way, if the buyer had conviction in one direction.

My numbers were obviously edited as I went back to the website and built the car again as I was going from memory. My built car was $100,445 w/destination sans Nav.

The center console in the 997S I just traded in yesterday is NOWHERE near even the quality in the 335i I picked up.

The E92M3 full leather interior is better than what was in my full leather 997S. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The 997.2 I haven't seen in person.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Sorry scot, but i gotta call you out on this. When I ordered by e92 m3, i was able to obtain a swatch of the fox red and it is not nearly the same quality of what Porsche uses in their cars. The plastics in the bmws like the dash are also of a harder, cheaper plastic than what Porsche uses. You get what you pay for...and this is no exception.

Perhaps it's a better quality leather but it doesn't look and more importantly doesn't wear any better than what is shown in this picture of an M3.

Greg, you're seriously going to say that the crap they stick in a Porsche center console is better than this?

[David 12]

http://www.planet-9.com/attachments/..._7179157_n.jpg

alms - Here is a picture of Drkareem's 2010 Cayman S interior:

IMO it is as nice as the BMW console (especially if you have the Sport Chrono Package)

By the way, aren't you tempted by the new Procede V4 or JB3 2.0?

Dave

Previous Car: 2007 335i coupe, JB3, DCI

[devo]

Originally Posted by alms21

The center console in the 997S I just traded in yesterday is NOWHERE near even the quality in the 335i I picked up.

The E92M3 full leather interior is better than what was in my full leather 997S. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The 997.2 I haven't seen in person.

The E92 M3 or the 335 don't have full leather. There is no leather on the dash, doors or anywhere I mentioned. The 335's leather seats are terrible. They're not of the same quality as the M nor the Porsche. I own a 335 I know.

Even if I give you the center console, big freaking deal. The M has a marginally better piece of plastic between the seats, wow what an interior!!! Besides, like already mentioned, the picture you posted is of a M with the optional leather trim around the center console compared to a standard plastic console (which you also posted) of the 911. You're being goofy now.

Overall the interior of the M is no better than the .2 997S. The .2 911S optioned with full leather AND their optional leather center console is far better than BMW's optional center console and lack of full leather. The 335, well that falls short of either car or scenario I presented.

BTW, tell me where BMW has your claimed "full leather"? The 997.1 and .2's OPTIONAL full leather is much better than BMW's plastic dash.

[devo]

Originally Posted by alms21

Perhaps it's a better quality leather but it doesn't look and more importantly doesn't wear any better than what is shown in this picture of an M3.

Greg, you're seriously going to say that the crap they stick in a Porsche center console is better than this?

Yes it certainly is at least equal to that when optioned with their leather console; considering your pic has BMW's OPTIONAL leather console. Porsche's leather console is in line with BMW's price. Can't really compare the dash though as BMW doesn't offer a leather dash, doors, etc...

Nice looking interior, however.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Scot, if youre talking bmw EXTENDED leather (which you show in that pic) vs Porsche leather wrapped center console, Porsches is without a doubt superior leather, no ifs and or buts. As for plastic vs plastic, the crap Bmw uses in their center console if you dont cough up for extended leather is STILL cheaper...its scrapes/dents VERY easily and doesnt wear as well.
Maybe we have had different experiences, but I know in my 3 P cars, as well as all the P cars my dad has owned, (prob about 8 total between the two of us) we have not experienced ANYTHING like what you are talking about. The 2004 996TT cab's leather looked like it just came out of the factory at 20K miles, same for our 996TT coupe at about the same mileage. My 911 C4 and Cayman S showed virtually no wear either...an the cayenne GTS, forget it, the leather an alcantara seats are some of the best in the biz.
It seems like anytime you convice yourself you need a new car, you bash the one you currently have to make going to a lesser or different car easier. I remember you used to BASH THE HELL out of vettes and z06, but once you bought a z06, it became a god send. same with you m3, your previous 335, etc. I could go on 6speed and pull the posts emhasizing probably each one. You can justify things however you want, but to tell someone a P car is un-dd
able because YOU dont THINK it is, is ludacris and is not indicitive of the truth except for you personally.

First off, the pic I posted is MY 997S that I just got rid of. Are you seriously going to convince yourself that you see no wear in that leather seat? That seat has 32k miles on it.

EDIT -- The pic I posted does not show the wear on the seat as much as I thought it did. Trust me, it looked like a 400lb man slept in the driver's seat.

On top of the wear in the leather....the interior door panels (leather by the way) around the speakers vibrated, the dashboard rattled like a '78 Camaro, the seatbacks rattled and the passenger seat vibrated like a pornstar having an orgasm.

I did bash Z06's before I owned one. After I sold it, I continued to discuss it's shortcomings (cheap interior and noisy transmission) while EMPHASIZING it's unquestionable performance abilities. I NEVER ONCE mentioned that it was a "Godsend". I challenge you to go back and find that comment.

I never once bashed my former M3. Go find one time I bashed it Greg. Come on, I challenge you.

Never claimed my 335 coupe was anymore or any less than what it was. A very good car.

If you think for one minute that you can do the following things in a 911 on a daily basis without a huge PIA factor then you aren't as smart as I gave you credit for.

take a client or two out to lunch
pick up drycleaning
carry work files
transport a golf bag

I've got two final questions.....if 911's are so great, why don't you drive one? Why did you sell your CaymanS after two months of ownership?

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

First, I kept my cayman S for 8 months scot, far cry from 2 months. And I bought it with the intention of selling it right before winter. And you know me, I like to get a new car every 8 months or so.
Second, I dont need to take clients out to lunch, and my cayman S and my 911 fit my golf clubs, carried work files and dry cleaning gets delivered to me.
Im not saying youll never see wear on any leather, but i have seen FAR worse on M3s, 335s, M5s, etc that have only 15K miles on them. And if you want to get into rattles, the new BMWs have just as many as they always have.

Once again, if 911's are so great and work as a DD why don't you own one?

You may not need to take clients out to lunch or take your boss with you on a client call but many of us do. Thus, not a good DD for us.

The interior in my '06 M5 was in a different stratosphere above my 997S. The old Idrive was abysmal but yet still better than Porsche's god awful Nav system. One other thing that I just don't understand about Porsche --- the skinny, wimpy steering wheel in the 911 with no audio controls.

How did you carry golf clubs in your 996 without wedging them in the back seat?

btw, I was being facetious about the "two months".

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Certainly didnt sound like it. I dont own one because its not conducive to my lifestyle right now. Things change when you buy a house and you put 20+% down on it. I still have a few toys to play with though.
I used the rear seats shelf to fit my clubs in my 911 or in the front footwell if there was no passenger.
As for your M5, I honestly think their interiors are just as bad. really no better than what is in the current m3 if you ask me.
Both 911 turbos had VERY thick steering wheels that were great, guess you didnt have that option. The new steering wheels in the new 911s are absolutely phenomenal! Its one of the best steering wheels out ther now, perfect thickness and if you want audio controls, you have to buy them...driving is the main focus, remember scot? not like bmw where most people could care less about driver focus.
Porsche's new touch screen nav is good too, MUCH better than the crappy idrive. i hated the idrive when I had it...it was terrible and the knob and set up was the biggest piece of shit, not to mention the shitty plastic dash they use in their cars and the attrocious looking 'double hump'. I liked the nav setup in my m3 zcp, but that nav was easily one of the worst navs in car history. bmw should be ashames they ever put that into a production car. the new software is a huge improvement but still is far from perfect.

Greg - a 997S is $100K don't you think Porsche could at least give the consumer a thick steering wheel? You just said it -- driving is the main focus right? How about a steering wheel that doesn't look like it came off of a '78 Plymouth. The new steering wheel in the 997.2s is an improvement but still not meaty enough.

My M5 had FULL LEATHER dash, door panels, etc. It blew my full leather 997S out of the water in interior quality.

It is a known fact that Porsche's Navigation system was one of the worst out there. I was so horrid, I never used it in the 997S.

Shitty dash material? Unless you have full leather, the Porsche is the same fucking material. You really need to put the Porsche Kool-Aid away. It's getting comical now.

I will bet alot of money Porsche's new Nav still pales in comparison to BMW's new IDrive system.

I'm done with the debate. You are stuck on Porsche and there is nothing anybody can say or prove to you to make you think otherwise.

[330CIZHP]

Dude seriously zip it now already. You are not making yourself look very good here. You are talking about what you have only seen in an E90 M3 or E60 M5 for like 15 minutes and making conclusions from that. You don't own any of these cars. It is completely different than having owned those.

It is a far cry from ALMS who has owned several Porsche 911s in his life time and BMW M3 and M5 cars for several years. He is in a far better and more credible position to make those comparisons than you who is completely always dogging on BMW and making Porsche sound like God's gift to earth. Seriously now.

Originally Posted by shift@red

It seems like youre getting angry.

The material used on the dash without full leather IS NOT the same. BMWs is hard plastic, Porsche's is a material that at least feels soft and more like leather.
I dont agree, I have been in/driven multiple extended leather m5s, and it pails in comparo to any 911 with full leather IMO. you can think otherwise, but BMW leather quality is still a lesser quality material than what Porsche uses...I know this for a fact. do you not remember my family owns a Porsche dealership (and a few other brands too)? I have a little bit more insider info on their stuff as well as others that you or the general public do not.
Youre right that you wont convice me otherwise...you nor anyone ever had a chance at doing that.
Enjoy your 335...youll be on here in a couple months when you realize its rattling and creaking in every direction and that it 'wasnt the car for you', AGAIN.

[991GT3]

You guys are getting excited over completely subjective things. Porsche and BMW both have excellent build quality. There are things on one that are better than the other and vice versa. For me 911s are too small and expensive (though I still may pull the trigger on a GT3) that's why I opted for a GTR. And BMW doesn't really make anything that competes with a GT3 on up.

[footie]

I have never actually seen a 997 that didn't have full leather (i.e. including dash) but I had seen a few Caymans without it and I can honestly said hand on my heart that I don't think the quality of it's dash was better than BMW have.

It's weird how this debate has progressed it something far removed from normal automobile discussions.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

You guys are getting excited over completely subjective things. Porsche and BMW both have excellent build quality. There are things on one that are better than the other and vice versa. For me 911s are too small and expensive (though I still may pull the trigger on a GT3) that's why I opted for a GTR. And BMW doesn't really make anything that competes with a GT3 on up.

+1 well said. I was trying to make that point earlier. They are both excellent cars and very desirable. While they directly compete on some levels, my opinion is that Porsche edges out BMW on overall performance while BMW edges out Porsche on overall luxury; not to say that either are skimpy in their respective areas. However, due to Porsches ability to allow the customer to order a la carte, you can obviously configure a Porsche to be more luxurious; even more so than the average BMW ($$$$$).

I've configured a Cayman S to over $108k...LOL.


-SZ

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Scot, if youre talking bmw EXTENDED leather (which you show in that pic) vs Porsche leather wrapped center console, Porsches is without a doubt superior leather, no ifs and or buts. As for plastic vs plastic, the crap Bmw uses in their center console if you dont cough up for extended leather is STILL cheaper...its scrapes/dents VERY easily and doesnt wear as well.
Maybe we have had different experiences, but I know in my 3 P cars, as well as all the P cars my dad has owned, (prob about 8 total between the two of us) we have not experienced ANYTHING like what you are talking about. The 2004 996TT cab's leather looked like it just came out of the factory at 20K miles, same for our 996TT coupe at about the same mileage. My 911 C4 and Cayman S showed virtually no wear either...an the cayenne GTS, forget it, the leather an alcantara seats are some of the best in the biz.
It seems like anytime you convice yourself you need a new car, you bash the one you currently have to make going to a lesser or different car easier. I remember you used to BASH THE HELL out of vettes and z06, but once you bought a z06, it became a god send. same with you m3, your previous 335, etc. I could go on 6speed and pull the posts emhasizing probably each one. You can justify things however you want, but to tell someone a P car is un-dd
able because YOU dont THINK it is, is ludacris and is not indicitive of the truth except for you personally.

I can tell you right now my e46 m3 interior is way nicer looking and hold up better than any 996 porsche (including the tt). i compare these two because they are pretty much the same generation. I have seen plenty of them when I was car shopping for my m3. the 996 interior is outdated, ugly, and doesn't look any better in term of quality. I have no wear/tear not even a single scratch/crack on my 7 years old interior. Gonna take a picture and show you guys what I mean in the next few days.

as far as the new m3 interior, I think it is better looking than 997 interior and on par in term of quality. Seen both at car shows multiple times and compare them back to back.

just because the porsche dash has leather doesn't mean the interior is of high quality or fit/finish is good. leather dash doesn't equal to the 25-40k overpriced porsche is , sorry. I'm sure they consider 15k in the price for the leather dash alone. LOL

[graider]

Originally Posted by alms21

Greg - a 997S is $100K don't you think Porsche could at least give the consumer a thick steering wheel? You just said it -- driving is the main focus right? How about a steering wheel that doesn't look like it came off of a '78 Plymouth. The new steering wheel in the 997.2s is an improvement but still not meaty enough.

My M5 had FULL LEATHER dash, door panels, etc. It blew my full leather 997S out of the water in interior quality.

It is a known fact that Porsche's Navigation system was one of the worst out there. I was so horrid, I never used it in the 997S.

Shitty dash material? Unless you have full leather, the Porsche is the same fucking material. You really need to put the Porsche Kool-Aid away. It's getting comical now.

I will bet alot of money Porsche's new Nav still pales in comparison to BMW's new IDrive system.

I'm done with the debate. You are stuck on Porsche and there is nothing anybody can say or prove to you to make you think otherwise.

agree. that skinny porsche steering wheel is a turn off for me as well. I especially love the thick steering wheel in the new m3. Hands down the best I have ever held in my hand.

as far as interior goes, m6 interior trumps all porsche interiors regardless full leather or not. I've sat in the m6 interior and the quality/fit and finish is above pretty much everything out there.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

First, I kept my cayman S for 8 months scot, far cry from 2 months. And I bought it with the intention of selling it right before winter. And you know me, I like to get a new car every 8 months or so.
Second, I dont need to take clients out to lunch, and my cayman S and my 911 fit my golf clubs, carried work files and dry cleaning gets delivered to me.
Im not saying youll never see wear on any leather, but i have seen FAR worse on M3s, 335s, M5s, etc that have only 15K miles on them. And if you want to get into rattles, the new BMWs have just as many as they always have.

how do you know new m3 have rattle. I heard many owners here confirmed that the new m3 doesn't rattle. footie can confirm this as he owned one.

are you just assuming the new m3 has rattle?

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by graider

agree. that skinny porsche steering wheel is a turn off for me as well. I especially love the thick steering wheel in the new m3. Hands down the best I have ever held in my hand.

as far as interior goes, m6 interior trumps all porsche interiors regardless full leather or not. I've sat in the m6 interior and the quality/fit and finish is above pretty much everything out there.

I agree on the M6. There seems to be no visible plastic. Even the rear speaker deck area, pillars and headliner are covered in some type of suede. The CF center console is also very nice.

-SZ

[graider]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

You guys are getting excited over completely subjective things. Porsche and BMW both have excellent build quality. There are things on one that are better than the other and vice versa. For me 911s are too small and expensive (though I still may pull the trigger on a GT3) that's why I opted for a GTR. And BMW doesn't really make anything that competes with a GT3 on up.

and honestly bmw doens't need to make anything to compete with the gt3. There is not much money to be made there really. how much gt3/rs are they selling worldwide again? the profit from that is really chump change.

bmw can compete with prosche anytime they want to. look at the e46 m3 csl. way better looking than the rice out 996 gt3 with the fat wing inside out, perform on par or better with less hp, sound better, etc.

porche make most money from the cayenne truck and the fat chick panamera gonna join the profit pool for porsche soon.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by graider

and honestly bmw doens't need to make anything to compete with the gt3. There is not much money to be made there really. how much gt3/rs are they selling worldwide again? the profit from that is really chump change.

bmw can compete with prosche anytime they want to. look at the e46 m3 csl. way better looking than the rice out 996 gt3 with the fat wing inside out, perform on par or better with less hp, sound better, etc.

porche make most money from the cayenne truck and the fat chick panamera gonna join the profit pool for porsche soon.

[SUB-ZERO]

C'mon guys...relax. It's just a freakin car.

Besides, both the M3 and the 911S are great cars.

Looks are subjective, performance is obviously close for the average driver and the Porsche is obviously over-priced...ehhhh I mean more expensive because they use the foreskins of 100 virgin boys to wrap the dash and seats in.

Either way, I am glad that I got the M3 over a Porsche for a few reasons:

1. I think the M3 looks more aggressive (there's a 911S parked next to my M3 right now...I should go take a pic).

2. It is fast enough for me and handles great!

3. I saved over $20k (over a base 911S)

4. I have a backseat, which, can be used for many things (some x-rated).

-SZ

[graider]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

C'mon guys...relax. It's just a freakin car.

Besides, both the M3 and the 911S are great cars.

Looks are subjective, performance is obviously close for the average driver and the Porsche is obviously over-priced...ehhhh I mean more expensive because they use the foreskins of 100 virgin boys to wrap the dash and seats in.

Either way, I am glad that I got the M3 over a Porsche for a few reasons:

1. I think the M3 looks more aggressive (there's a 911S parked next to my M3 right now...I should go take a pic).

2. It is fast enough for me and handles great!

3. I saved over $20k (over a base 911S)

4. I have a backseat, which, can be used for many things (some x-rated).

-SZ

exactly my thought as well. 100% agree.

I honestly could have went the porsche route if I wanted to a few years ago, but I though the m3 exterior/interior looks better vs comparable used porsche in the 40-60k range at the time, plus the m3 have many other advantages such as space, high rev engine, etc.