Anybody who tracks should read this.

[Gearhead999s]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ng_lap-feature

[von_zoom]

I can relate to what they report. The stock brakes on the E92 would most likely preform in a simular fashiion if pushed the same way. At CMP in South Carolina, the brakes on the E92 went away quickly, only two laps and they were complaining. By lap four, the fade was nearing severe enough to force the run to end. I did not track the car the remainder of the event, and would not track the car again at all at CMP.

My second time out, at VIR, was less demanding on the brakes, I suspect due to longer periods between brake applications, plus, I was much more cautious and easy on the car.

Good report and info. Thanks
vz

[attila]

C&D's conclusion is in line with the findings people reported on this forum. I went through some brake fade even with the stock PS2's. The major problem is the lack of proper cooling system ie. brake ducts.
My experinece with the Carbotech pads, SRF fluid is OK even without the ducts. But I am not a professional, don't want to kill the car anyway, and limit track sessions at 30min.

[lucid]

Not sure I understand the point of the article. It is common knowledge that one should not use street pads on the track and upgrade the fluid. They present that as a key finding and are suprised their stock brakes faded after 10 minutes of abuse by a skilled driver on a track? Didn't it occur to them that they should at least put high temp pads in before taking it to the track? They can argue that Porsche or Corvette stock pads don't experience fade so quickly, but that is somewhat irrelevant IMO unless Nissan claims the car is "track-ready" off the showroom. Nissan can probably argue the stock pads and fluid are fine for any "legal" driving condition on public roads. I doubt that you can make that setup fade driving 75 mph even down a mountain. They did fine during 2 cycles of 5 100-0 stops in their test (sounds like 10 100-0 stops, 8 of them threshold braking, 20 seconds apart). The authors should stop whining and admit their stupidity.

[von_zoom]

Lucid - agree in principal with what you say. However, these cars while sitting in the show room awaiting an anxious buyer are billed as the end all to sprited driving. I doubt anyone buying one would take it to the track and conduct like kind conduct and expect top honors. In stead, a more probable sobering experience would result, simular to my first venture on the track with the E92. Simply put, stock brakes on most cars do not lend themselves to track situations. So yes, your coment about the authors is not far off the mark.
vz

[lucid]

VZ, I agree that there is a lot of marketing hype behind these products, which one might hold against Nissan in court, and maybe it'll stick, who knows...Pads are consumables though and are easily replaced, and any somewhat experienced driver knows that if you'll push the car on the track, you should use high temp pads. It's not as if its stock engine blew after a few laps and Nissan said that's normal. BTW, in the E9X M3 owners manual, BMW covers this by explicitly stating that one should use high temperature pads if one plans to track the car.

[r_seng]

Just like the 135 pads, these brakes aren't MADE for track use. Simple as that.

[wuzupfoo]

I think the main takeaway is that its one thing to experience fade, alot of the cars in that test experienced fade, since they were essenitally testing stock cars in the lighting lap comparo. But rather its the abrupt and extreme reaction that is the main takeaway, which is pretty inexcusable for a NISMO trim level. NISMO is like their sportiest trim level.

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by wuzupfoo

I think the main takeaway is that its one thing to experience fade, alot of the cars in that test experienced fade, since they were essenitally testing stock cars in the lighting lap comparo. But rather its the abrupt and extreme reaction that is the main takeaway, which is pretty inexcusable for a NISMO trim level. NISMO is like their sportiest trim level.

I think is the key and I don't think the manual states anything about the brake pads like BMW does but I could be wrong. The issue is the perception that a NISMO 370Z is to a certain extent track ready. Just like a M car is to a certain extent track ready. Our brakes might fade but they don't just completely go out like the test car did.

[lucid]

Different pads have different CoF vs temp curves. Some fall off sharply after MOT. And, Nissan optimized strictly for street use in their setup (MOT vs cost, dust, noise, whatever)--more so than other manufacturers maybe. So what really. You still need to use the right pad for the application. Based on what's published, it's not as if there seems to be anything wrong with the NISMO brakes. Did the calipers, rotors, pistons fail?

[AMPowerJ]

IDK Lucid ... I would be a bit pissed with the OEM brake pads if I purchased a NISMO edition.

It is kinda like buying a printer and getting ink with it that wipes off with your finger. The printer may work fine but if the ink that is included isn't legit you lose confidence in the whole package. Especially if you are not warned that the ink is just temporary and should be replaced before really trying to print.

This is probably a stupid analogy but just trying to make the point that 370Z buyers are misled by the NISMO name especially if the manual doesn't state a huge warning about the pads. Again other performance cars with OEM brakes don't behave like this so I think you have to take into account the other manufacturers around you in your same class to determine if you are letting your customers down or not.

IMO this is a problem.

[AMPowerJ]

Check out Nissan's site for the NISMO edition and tell me if you don't think they are marketing this car as race bred and more performance oriented that the run of the mill 370Z. Seems pretty clear to me the marketing is way out in front of the product.

http://www.nissanusa.com/nismo/370Z/....NISMO.Home.P1..

[Spitfire3D]

I think the article did a good job of talking about all the factors involved, and there is definitely more to glean from it then simply saying don't run stock brake pads and fluid at the track. Particularly the point about getting similar brake failure with more aggressive pads. I've seen a lot of people JUST talk about pads when considering track days.

Sure as hell beats most crap that these magazines put out, which are usually focused on whining about inconsequential details of the cars their reviewing.

[lucid]

AMPowerJ, the printer anology does not hold up IMO. The printer is supposed to print fine out of the box in the target usage scenario. Pads and fluid are supposed to be upgraded for track abuse. That's because what is optimal for the track is not optimal for the street and vice versa. That's expected--common knowledge. Did the authors call Nissan and ask if they should run their track test with stock pads and fluid, and did Nissan tell them to go ahead?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Spitfire3D

I think the article did a good job of talking about all the factors involved, and there is definitely more to glean from it then simply saying don't run stock brake pads and fluid at the track. Particularly the point about getting similar brake failure with more aggressive pads. I've seen a lot of people JUST talk about pads when considering track days.

Sure as hell beats most crap that these magazines put out, which are usually focused on whining about inconsequential details of the cars their reviewing.

So, you're giving them credit for replicating findings that are common knowledge? The higher temp pads did indeed result in better fade performance. And, the upgraded fluid increased fade performance even further. That setup faded at some point as well. So what? The E9X M3 brakes fade with high temp pads, fluid and lines if you push it for a long time. Same is true for the Z4M coupe. If you don't want that, you need to make even more modifications. BTW, speaking of factors, they are not saying anything about tires.

[swamp2]

Interesting article IMO.

Originally Posted by wuzupfoo

I think the main takeaway is that its one thing to experience fade, alot of the cars in that test experienced fade, since they were essenitally testing stock cars in the lighting lap comparo. But rather its the abrupt and extreme reaction that is the main takeaway, which is pretty inexcusable for a NISMO trim level. NISMO is like their sportiest trim level.

I agree, the abrupt and catastrophic failure of the brake SYSTEM is the most surprising point of the article. Lucid: it was not a pad, rotor or caliper that failed, it was (most likely) an entire corner, based on lack of cooling and fluid boiling. Directly from the article:

And it’s worth noting that we’ve never experienced such hellacious brake degradation in the history of our Lightning Lap events.

This is inexcusable for any sport oriented car from any manufacturer.

What would have made the article MUCH more interesting and valuable would simply have been a retest with no modifications except some brake cooling ducting. Without such a test their ultimate conclusion is just a suspicion.

[lucid]

Swamp, you know as well as I do that pads and fluids have operating temperature ranges as key specifications. If you exceed those, you will experience all sorts of problems, which seemts to be what happened to them. Why do you think they are plotting stopping distances for different pad and fluid setups in the article? That's why one needs to be cognizant of those variables before taking a car to the track. Nissan's specs for the pads and fluids were meant for the street. I see nothing wrong with that. Remember that BMW equipped their test cars in Spain with track pads during the press release of the E9X M3. I guess they didn't want any journalists putting their cars into the wall.

Eventual overheating without further modification is a real issue in M cars as well. These particular systems are not fade proof. I came home from the track with a rather soft pedal and a car that won't stop well a few weeks ago in my Z4M coupe despite having used higher temp pads and fluid. Without those upgrades, you just experience fade sooner. It's that simple. That seems to be what has happened to the authors. Even more upgrades are necessary for a completely fade-proof system in these cars if they are meant to be pushed around on a track.

And, the Lightning Lap is something the magazine cooked up. Manufacturers do not have to ship cars with pads and fluids that are for track use despite the marketing hype. Those are meant to be upgraded as the M3 manual and common knowledge suggests (and they are easy to upgrade). I can complain because the front PS2s that came with my E92 M3 were literally destroyed after two days on the track. I can claim that is unacceptable and even unsafe (as in lacking grip and unstable under heavy braking when hot). What do you think BMW will say?

[von_zoom]

I am not taking sides either way, only wish to note, that VIR is a long track. Very heavy threshold braking is demanded on only four corners, and these four corners are spaced fairly long apart. Thus, brakes have some opportunity to recover, but not fully. I would think that the failure was not, or should not have been, totally unexpected. Knowing VIR, if the brakes were beginning to go south, some warning would sing out at Oak Tree, and again would have been apparent at the end of the back straight at the top before Hog Pen. No need to leave the track at turn one, unless they merely wanted to get the brakes to give up all together. Then, that would make a story wouldn't it.
vz

[attila]

Lucid, I agree with you on that the NISMO pads/fluid are street pads/fluid and one should not expect them to hold up during track sessions. You also say that this is common knowledge, but I am not so sure. It maybe common knowledge here on this forum, and a basic trivia for you, but I met people on the track who just tracked their cars stock without paying too much attention to track readiness. Even myself - and you can call it stupidity - used the street pads on the M3 on track because just did not like the hassle to change them for the last track day of the season. I started a thread about it, since I used BFG-R1 tires at the same time. Well, the experience was, lets just be kind to myslef, eye opening.

Actually I like these new technical articles in C&D recently. They tested cameras, R compound tires etc. So I think this article maybe not so much for you or us who knew or learned these things already but potentially useful for complette beginers.

[lucid]

Atilla, yes, knowing the factors that affect fade performance is not necessarily common knowledge for the beginner who shows up on a track, and in that sense the article can be informative. That's fine. My point is those factors should have been obvious to the authors. They are supposed to be professionals and they should simply know better. They put a car into the wall on a demanding track, and seem to be implying that it was not their fault, and that the car should have held up long enough in their track test with OEM pads and fluid (which were intended for street use). That's the part that doesn't make sense.

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by lucid

Atilla, yes, knowing the factors that affect fade performance is not necessarily common knowledge for the beginner who shows up on a track, and in that sense the article can be informative. That's fine. My point is those factors should have been obvious to the authors. They are supposed to be professionals and they should simply know better. They put a car into the wall on a demanding track, and seem to be implying that it was not their fault, and that the car should have held up long enough in their track test with OEM pads and fluid (which were intended for street use). That's the part that doesn't make sense.

C&D tests cars that are 100% stock. That is their job. If they started changing pads, fluids, etc. all of their tests would be worthless to the consumer. I don't understand your beef at all.

There is an obvious difference between stock braking performance of a BMW, Corvette, etc. vs a NISMO 370Z. Yes all fade but the way they fade and when is different. Is that not important information? You can modify practically anything to make it better on a track. I think it is interesting to see which 'performance' cars perform well on the track right out of the factory.

I am sure C&D would get better MPG tests if they removed all the interior and lightened the car too but that wouldn't make any more sense than changing pads and fluid before doing a track test with cars that are marketed to be track-type cars.

[attila]

Planting the car in the wall is a questionable activity from their part. They did experience brake fade earlier with the car. But I guess they had similar brake fade with the other cars. So they were not as worried??!!They tested several cars on VIR throughout the years even less track worthy contenders and I cannot recall too many accidents.

Is there any car magazine who would test and recommend mods?? Like for instance try different pads, fluids, etc. C&D actually did a nice test on different rim sizes vs acceleration, milage etc.


Tomorrow is TRACK day for me!! Fast Friday at Mid America Motorplex!! Can't wait. Last time I went it was pooring rain, wiper on max, not enjoyable.