Supercharger or not worth it

[XIX]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

If that was the case, it would be in this list:

M3POST's official 60-130 and 1/4 mile thread
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630463

Mostly see ESS, VF and Gintani listed, all Vortech-based systems.

I have clearly said it feels faster , even though it may not be.

[XIX]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Sounds like people who don't know how to drive a sc m3

Owning a c63 and sc m3 I can tell you the m3 feels worlds faster driven correctly. It's a a constant pull where as my c63 is intial punch and then pull feels goes away. If you try to drive a m3 at 3k rpm and expect to feel something you are going to be upset. You need to start the hit at 5500-6500 to get that punch. Also a manual car will feel worlds slower than a dct.

Again this depends what kit you have. Unless you have driven both you wouldn't understand.

[Installsplus]

Do it u will love it. I also was in the same dilemma until I supercharged it. Huge difference in power! Gluck with ur decision!

[cmo_93]

In the same position...well similar. I've been daily driving it and I'm up to 80k miles but I can't find anything I really want to trade it for...so thinking about an SC...

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Right, but I don't think anyone is claiming that Harrop makes the fastest kit on the market. I agree with XIX that big power at the end of the rev range does not give the "scary fast" feeling while big torque down low can. 60-130 is where the centri kits shine (top end) so it's no surprise they are at the top of the list. Not to mention they've been out for almost a decade now while the Harrop is only a couple years old.

Don't get me wrong, nobody would drive a supercharged M3 of any flavor and call it "slow," it just lacks the gut punch you get from a car with more torque. I am still very satisfied with the power level provided by my ESS 625 kit.

Exactly.

Also, most Harrop owners aren't drag racers looking to do 1/4mi times and post them on a forum. But as you said, the elephant in the room is that centri kits are a dime a dozen and Harrop kits are much more exclusive. As more get out there and further stages are released we'll see more recorded results.

I know of a customer that did 11.9. I've driven every kit and nothing satisfies me more overall than the Harrop kit. What's the biggest complaint about this car? Lack of torque at lower RPM's, and this is the only kit that offers a solution for that. Sure if you're at 6-8k RPM all day, a centri kit is likely more well suited.

It's more about the overall driving experience/package than having the fastest car.

As far as bearings, I think that if they are going to go, it's going to be irrespective of the blower. That said, it's definitely smart to to address this before pushing the car more since in NA form they are known to have issues. Better safe than sorry.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Not sure how tuned you car but my videos of my car say other wise lol... Before going to r888s I was lighting 295 pss from a 50mph roll lol. Tq no longer matters above 5200 rpm as that is where hp takes over. Now in comparison to my z no my m3 isn't scary but my z also makes 840whp and only weighs 3160lbs where comparing a 4klb car only making 530.

My car is running an ESS tune and stock cats. I haven't had it on the dyno since upgrading from a 550 kit but I would expect somewhere between 500-520whp. I definitely get some wheel spin at the top of 2nd gear but no wheel spin in 3rd. Perhaps our butt dynos are just calibrated differently or we have different definitions for "scary fast." I can tell you my buddy's ~500whp 135i FEELS faster and scarier but in reality is about the same. That car will light up the tires all the way through 3rd gear.

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Exactly.

Also, most Harrop owners aren't drag racers looking to do 1/4mi times and post them on a forum. But as you said, the elephant in the room is that centri kits are a dime a dozen and Harrop kits are much more exclusive. As more get out there and further stages are released we'll see more recorded results.

I know of a customer that did 11.9. I've driven every kit and nothing satisfies me more overall than the Harrop kit. What's the biggest complaint about this car? Lack of torque at lower RPM's, and this is the only kit that offers a solution for that. Sure if you're at 6-8k RPM all day, a centri kit is likely more well suited.

It's more about the overall driving experience/package than having the fastest car.

As far as bearings, I think that if they are going to go, it's going to be irrespective of the blower. That said, it's definitely smart to to address this before pushing the car more since in NA form they are known to have issues. Better safe than sorry.

Yup, if cost were not a factor I would have gone with a Harrop kit since I don't have the pleasure of winding my car out past 6k RPM on a daily basis. Wish I could but the road quality, traffic, and aversion to prison keep me in check most of the time.

I picked up my 550 kit for $4.5k including tune, at the time I thought it would be plenty of power for less than half the price of the Harrop. Well, it definitely was enough power, but the mod bug bit me again and I upgraded to the 625 for an extra $2k. Still quite a bit less expensive than a Harrop for slightly more power. Maybe some day I will snatch up a Harrop kit when they become more broadly available. Also waiting to see what stage 2 brings to the table...

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

My car is running an ESS tune and stock cats. I haven't had it on the dyno since upgrading from a 550 kit but I would expect somewhere between 500-520whp. I definitely get some wheel spin at the top of 2nd gear but no wheel spin in 3rd. Perhaps our butt dynos are just calibrated differently or we have different definitions for "scary fast." I can tell you my buddy's ~500whp 135i FEELS faster and scarier but in reality is about the same. That car will light up the tires all the way through 3rd gear.



Yup, if cost were not a factor I would have gone with a Harrop kit since I don't have the pleasure of winding my car out past 6k RPM on a daily basis. Wish I could but the road quality, traffic, and aversion to prison keep me in check most of the time.

I picked up my 550 kit for $4.5k including tune, at the time I thought it would be plenty of power for less than half the price of the Harrop. Well, it definitely was enough power, but the mod bug bit me again and I upgraded to the 625 for an extra $2k. Still quite a bit less expensive than a Harrop for slightly more power. Maybe some day I will snatch up a Harrop kit when they become more broadly available. Also waiting to see what stage 2 brings to the table...

Part of that problem is you aren't suppose to be running stock cats on a 625kit. you are holding the car back with it not being able to breath, air out is just as important as air in. I just sold my f80 m3. it made 505whp and 597wtq, a buddy of mine owns FBO f80 on e85 and meth and we are a dead even race when I had my old e90 with a 625kit. there is nothing scary fast about any car only making 500whp at 3500lbs. I'll see if I had the videos of our races at the 1/2 mile events.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Part of that problem is you aren't suppose to be running stock cats on a 625kit. you are holding the car back with it not being able to breath, air out is just as important as air in. I just sold my f80 m3. it made 505whp and 597wtq, a buddy of mine owns FBO f80 on e85 and meth and we are a dead even race when I had my old e90 with a 625kit. there is nothing scary fast about any car only making 500whp at 3500lbs. I'll see if I had the videos of our races at the 1/2 mile events.

Not surprised that a FBO f80 would be even with a ESS 625 kit with matching horsepower numbers. With that said, as a daily driver I imagine the f80 FEELS much faster unless you're just hanging out at 6k RPM at all times. That doesn't mean it actually IS faster, just that torque is a helluva drug.

Unfortunately I live in a state that does emissions testing so I can't go catless. I've considered a HFC x pipe but the gain just isn't worth it to me. I don't want my car to be louder than it already is with the ACM exhaust mod and the cost of a complete exhaust system would be north of $3k. Considering the entire SC kit cost me $6.5k for +150hp, it's hard to justify $3k for +25hp. Obviously removing the cats would be a noticeable bump in power, but it's not like it would turn the car into a different animal like going from NA to SC does. Even the jump from 550 to 625 didn't change the car in a noticeable way under normal daily driving conditions (no surprise). I would be more concerned about the stock cats if I was aiming to squeeze every last bit of power out of this car. In reality I'm not racing anyone, I just think the supercharger adds some much needed oomph when I do want to have some fun. With that in mind, I believe the Harrop kit probably would be best for my purposes if cost was not a factor.

[bvrider1]

Supercharge it and don't look back.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

I don't have the pleasure of winding my car out past 6k RPM on a daily basis. Wish I could but the road quality, traffic, and aversion to prison keep me in check most of the time.

I disagree, I am having fun winding my car past 6k RPM everytime i take it out, I think it's a matter of having the driving skills to exploit the engine range and gearing ratios. Some people could have the car ten years and still don't know. If I can do it with a manual (with h&toe) there is no excuse with a dct.

As far as aversion to prison holding you back, just don't do it in 4th gear. 6k rpm is 75 mph in 3rd on a 6MT no problem on a highway and bringing it to 7k temporarily is above limit and can be fined but it's not even triple digits speeds.

[JsL]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Not surprised that a FBO f80 would be even with a ESS 625 kit with matching horsepower numbers. With that said, as a daily driver I imagine the f80 FEELS much faster unless you're just hanging out at 6k RPM at all times. That doesn't mean it actually IS faster, just that torque is a helluva drug.

Unfortunately I live in a state that does emissions testing so I can't go catless. I've considered a HFC x pipe but the gain just isn't worth it to me. I don't want my car to be louder than it already is with the ACM exhaust mod and the cost of a complete exhaust system would be north of $3k. Considering the entire SC kit cost me $6.5k for +150hp, it's hard to justify $3k for +25hp. Obviously removing the cats would be a noticeable bump in power, but it's not like it would turn the car into a different animal like going from NA to SC does. Even the jump from 550 to 625 didn't change the car in a noticeable way under normal daily driving conditions (no surprise). I would be more concerned about the stock cats if I was aiming to squeeze every last bit of power out of this car. In reality I'm not racing anyone, I just think the supercharger adds some much needed oomph when I do want to have some fun. With that in mind, I believe the Harrop kit probably would be best for my purposes if cost was not a factor.

Buy another stock xpipe (for emissions) and get test pipes for ~700 bucks total.

It will net you waaaay more than +25whp since you're boosted. Make sure you get retuned, your air/fuel ratio will be way different with the exhaust opened up.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I disagree, I am having fun winding my car past 6k RPM everytime i take it out, I think it's a matter of having the driving skills to exploit the engine range and gearing ratios. Some people could have the car ten years and still don't know. If I can do it with a manual (with h&toe) there is no excuse with a dct.

As far as aversion to prison holding you back, just don't do it in 4th gear. 6k rpm is 75 mph in 3rd on a 6MT no problem on a highway and bringing it to 7k temporarily is above limit and can be fined but it's not even triple digits speeds.

It has nothing to do with driving skills, my commute simply doesn't allow me the opportunity to safely wring the engine out daily. Perhaps yours does. 3rd gear on 6MT tops out just north of 100mph and normally if I'm trying to have fun I want to hit the 8400 RPM redline. That's where this car shines, especially with a centri sc kit which is just starting to come alive at 75mph. One second bursts from 75-85 are not my idea of fun. I'm not sure what you're getting at or what you disagree with.

Originally Posted by JsL

Buy another stock xpipe (for emissions) and get test pipes for ~700 bucks total.

It will net you waaaay more than +25whp since you're boosted. Make sure you get retuned, your air/fuel ratio will be way different with the exhaust opened up.

I've considered it and at some point I may go that route but I'd still need a quieter rear section. Test pipes + ACM mod don't sound very good IMO. I would expect 25-30hp with TPs and 40-50 with a cattless xpipe. ESS told me there is no need to retune for test pipes, they are factored into the standard 625 tune.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

It has nothing to do with driving skills, my commute simply doesn't allow me the opportunity to safely wring the engine out daily. Perhaps yours does. 3rd gear on 6MT tops out just north of 100mph and normally if I'm trying to have fun I want to hit the 8400 RPM redline. That's where this car shines, especially with a centri sc kit which is just starting to come alive at 75mph. One second bursts from 75-85 are not my idea of fun. I'm not sure what you're getting at or what you disagree with.



I've considered it and at some point I may go that route but I'd still need a quieter rear section. Test pipes + ACM mod don't sound very good IMO. I would expect 25-30hp with TPs and 40-50 with a cattless xpipe. ESS told me there is no need to retune for test pipes, they are factored into the standard 625 tune.

having both sets of cats in the system causes a lot of heat, and back pressure. It's not just about power gain vs reliably and longevity with a healthly motor that's not being choked out. I see now that you are 6mt? which I can attest that in fact is worlds slower after a blower than a dct car. every 6mt sc car I raced in my last setup with me making less I've pulled by 3-4 cars and pulling. the gearing of the 6mt IMO is horrible for a scm3. if you were twin turbod it's be more favorable.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

having both sets of cats in the system causes a lot of heat, and back pressure. It's not just about power gain vs reliably and longevity with a healthly motor that's not being choked out. I see now that you are 6mt? which I can attest that in fact is worlds slower after a blower than a dct car. every 6mt sc car I raced in my last setup with me making less I've pulled by 3-4 cars and pulling. the gearing of the 6mt IMO is horrible for a scm3. if you were twin turbod it's be more favorable.

I specifically asked ESS about running stock cats with the 625 and 650 kits last year. According to them, it's perfectly safe to run even the 650 kit with cats, it just won't make as much power and is therefore not recommended. They did however recommend their HFC xpipe or leaving the stock xpipe if emission testing is a concern, which it is for me. The additional heat may accelerate wear on the cats, but the engine will be just fine.

I think you are missing my point. It's great that you are able to win races but that is not at all what I'm commenting on nor is it my goal. Again, nobody is denying that these cars are fast with any level supercharger. The smooth way in which the S65 builds power, particularly while cruising at normal RPM, just is not "scary" compared to a car with more torque. Will it push you in your seat if you punch it from 6k RPM? Sure. Will it feel the same as a turbo car or American V8 with an extra 100-200ft lb of torque and the same power, especially under normal DD circumstances? No, regardless of transmission.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

It has nothing to do with driving skills, my commute simply doesn't allow me the opportunity to safely wring the engine out daily. Perhaps yours does. 3rd gear on 6MT tops out just north of 100mph and normally if I'm trying to have fun I want to hit the 8400 RPM redline. That's where this car shines, especially with a centri sc kit which is just starting to come alive at 75mph. One second bursts from 75-85 are not my idea of fun. I'm not sure what you're getting at or what you disagree with.

It does not make much sense. You supercharge your commuter M3 and complain you have no opportunity to wring it to 8400 RPM redline. Why not take it to the track or use it as a dedicated sports car or pick open back roads ? If your life or work schedule does not allow this, then your problem is you bought the wrong car, not the wrong SC.
I disagree that accelerations from 2,000 RPM to 7000 RPM mostly within limits can not be enjoyed or are too short. They will be the same duration on a track than road only more of them. If what you are after is airport runway long straight drag races, half mile speed trap where the skills consist on keeping it floored and waiting 10 seconds while watching the speedometer then you bought the wrong car for that application too.
As far as getting more low end torque, real seat back pushers FI engines cars (M4, GT-R) are not my conception of fun driving. Fun driving occurs when the skills of the driver come into the equation and the engine linearity and the car allows for it to be fully expressed on challenging parcours.
Your argument that having all the power at the top end only makes for short bursts of legal fun as a commuter on busy road is asking the wrong result for the wrong situation. But even with a low end torque car, rocking yourself back and forth on commuter drive in fraction of seconds installments is not my concept of fun driving. It sounds humorous that you are trying to get more low end torque so that you can enjoy that silly rocking back and forth element in your commuting drive on a SC M3.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

Owning a c63 and sc m3 I can tell you the m3 feels worlds faster driven correctly. It's a a constant pull where as my c63 is intial punch and then pull feels goes away.

The C63 is an amazing beast--I spent a week in one, so I have some experience with the vehicle. However, power is pulled at higher RPMs to keep the power lower than the other x63 cars with more power. Supposedly you can tune out the weak top end in the stock C63. In a more apples to apples comparo, I'd like to know what you think of the two when the C63 is allowed to scream all the way to red line like it should.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

It does not make much sense. You supercharge your commuter M3 and complain you have no opportunity to wring it to 8400 RPM redline. Why not take it to the track or use it as a dedicated sports car or pick open back roads ? If your life or work schedule does not allow this, then your problem is you bought the wrong car, not the wrong SC.
I disagree that accelerations from 2,000 RPM to 7000 RPM mostly within limits can not be enjoyed or are too short. They will be the same duration on a track than road only more of them. If what you are after is airport runway long straight drag races, half mile speed trap where the skills consist on keeping it floored and waiting 10 seconds while watching the speedometer then you bought the wrong car for that application too.
As far as getting more low end torque, real seat back pushers FI engines cars (M4, GT-R) are not my conception of fun driving. Fun driving occurs when the skills of the driver come into the equation and the engine linearity and the car allows for it to be fully expressed on challenging parcours.
Your argument that having all the power at the top end only makes for short bursts of legal fun as a commuter on busy road is asking the wrong result for the wrong situation. But even with a low end torque car, rocking yourself back and forth on commuter drive in fraction of seconds installments is not my concept of fun driving. It sounds humorous that you are trying to get more low end torque so that you can enjoy that silly rocking back and forth element in your commuting drive on a SC M3.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm making observations about what it feels like to DD an ESS supercharged car versus what I imagine a Harrop is like. As I said, I am very happy with my 625 kit and the power level it provides. I do take my car to the track and I do take it up to 8400 RPM when it is safe to do so. I also enjoy it as a commuter car without wringing it out and being a dick to other drivers. You have misrepresented what I'm trying to say and the context I am saying it in. I'm not even going to bother further picking apart your nonsense and restating what I've already clearly said. I have no interest in arguing with you here or in any other thread you show up in.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

I specifically asked ESS about running stock cats with the 625 and 650 kits last year. According to them, it's perfectly safe to run even the 650 kit with cats, it just won't make as much power and is therefore not recommended. They did however recommend their HFC xpipe or leaving the stock xpipe if emission testing is a concern, which it is for me. The additional heat may accelerate wear on the cats, but the engine will be just fine.

I think you are missing my point. It's great that you are able to win races but that is not at all what I'm commenting on nor is it my goal. Again, nobody is denying that these cars are fast with any level supercharger. The smooth way in which the S65 builds power, particularly while cruising at normal RPM, just is not "scary" compared to a car with more torque. Will it push you in your seat if you punch it from 6k RPM? Sure. Will it feel the same as a turbo car or American V8 with an extra 100-200ft lb of torque and the same power, especially under normal DD circumstances? No, regardless of transmission.

I would not be surprised if someone actually managed to melt there stock cats with a 650kit. the amount of sheer heat is what is the problem. The back pressure build up, you can leave cats on a m4/m3 f80 cars with upgrades though it is highly not recommend due to back pressure and heat.

I didn't mention the wining a race as a dct being faster for bragging rights I mentioned it as the 6mt sc car that I drove even in the pull feels slower. So i'm saying it doesn't shock me know that you don't get that rush hitting the gas, as the 6mt is just slower for how long it takes to get through the power band.

my tuned c63 only makes 380wtq (what actually hits the road) stock c63s only make about 340wtq

my ess 625kit made 347wtq on my last car from 3krpm to 8400rpm. which at that point I personllay don't see the point of the harrop being talk about for tq when on a dyno my car is only making 25wtq less. What I think people are feeling is the harrop ramps up in tq. a c63 ramps up in tq where a ess kit car makes flat tq

The only difference in my driving in both heading to work is in the c63 I can hit it from 4500-6k and the m3 I hit it from 5500-8k/ which really comes down to a gear change. c63 is 4-5th from a 60 roll (daily commute)
m3 3-4th from 60 in a daily commute.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

The C63 is an amazing beast--I spent a week in one, so I have some experience with the vehicle. However, power is pulled at higher RPMs to keep the power lower than the other x63 cars with more power. Supposedly you can tune out the weak top end in the stock C63. In a more apples to apples comparo, I'd like to know what you think of the two when the C63 is allowed to scream all the way to red line like it should.

Tune vs stock is night and day. My car is tuned. what I was referring to is the toque drop. It happens at like 5500 rpm tq falls off. So that pull feeling goes away before up top. (clearly car is still accelerating but its not that same rush from lower rpm).

[XIX]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

It does not make much sense. You supercharge your commuter M3 and complain you have no opportunity to wring it to 8400 RPM redline. Why not take it to the track or use it as a dedicated sports car or pick open back roads ? If your life or work schedule does not allow this, then your problem is you bought the wrong car, not the wrong SC.
I disagree that accelerations from 2,000 RPM to 7000 RPM mostly within limits can not be enjoyed or are too short. They will be the same duration on a track than road only more of them. If what you are after is airport runway long straight drag races, half mile speed trap where the skills consist on keeping it floored and waiting 10 seconds while watching the speedometer then you bought the wrong car for that application too.
As far as getting more low end torque, real seat back pushers FI engines cars (M4, GT-R) are not my conception of fun driving. Fun driving occurs when the skills of the driver come into the equation and the engine linearity and the car allows for it to be fully expressed on challenging parcours.
Your argument that having all the power at the top end only makes for short bursts of legal fun as a commuter on busy road is asking the wrong result for the wrong situation. But even with a low end torque car, rocking yourself back and forth on commuter drive in fraction of seconds installments is not my concept of fun driving. It sounds humorous that you are trying to get more low end torque so that you can enjoy that silly rocking back and forth element in your commuting drive on a SC M3.

What on earth have you been smoking

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

I would not be surprised if someone actually managed to melt there stock cats with a 650kit. the amount of sheer heat is what is the problem. The back pressure build up, you can leave cats on a m4/m3 f80 cars with upgrades though it is highly not recommend due to back pressure and heat.

If the car is frequently hitting the track and staying at high RPM for extended periods of time, then yes the heat generated by a 650 may become a problem for the cats. I would certainly agree that catless is best on a track car for both reliability and power. On the street where the car is mostly at low-mid RPM with an occasional pull to redline followed by plenty of time to cool down, I would be very surprised to see a cooked cat. Even so, I don't think the engine would be in any real danger based on guidance from ESS.

Originally Posted by Properstyle

my ess 625kit made 347wtq on my last car from 3krpm to 8400rpm. which at that point I personllay don't see the point of the harrop being talk about for tq when on a dyno my car is only making 25wtq less. What I think people are feeling is the harrop ramps up in tq. a c63 ramps up in tq where a ess kit car makes flat tq

Exactly. Torque is what you feel under normal driving conditions, we are discussing feeling and the overall driving experience as opposed to raw peak numbers and flat out acceleration. The Harrop kit would give you the same feeling of acceleration and torque from lower RPM, thus making it more usable power on a street car.

The flat tq curve you speak of is what makes the car feel tame while still being incredibly fast. This isn't a bad thing at all, it's just a characteristic of the S65 and the reason why it does so well as a track car compared to something like the F80 with it's steep abrupt torque curve. That torque curve is what makes the F80 feel scarier/more shocking and light up the tires not just in 2nd like the E92, but also in 3rd.

Originally Posted by Properstyle

The only difference in my driving in both heading to work is in the c63 I can hit it from 4500-6k and the m3 I hit it from 5500-8k/ which really comes down to a gear change. c63 is 4-5th from a 60 roll (daily commute)
m3 3-4th from 60 in a daily commute.

Personally, I don't like being "that BMW guy" who blasts through traffic at 6k RPM. It brings attention from other drivers (and the police) that I do not want. The point of the Harrop kit is you can get all the punchy torque feeling you desire without having to make the engine scream and notify everyone around you that you are haulin' ass.

[BrewRifle]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

I specifically asked ESS about running stock cats with the 625 and 650 kits last year. According to them, it's perfectly safe to run even the 650 kit with cats, it just won't make as much power and is therefore not recommended. They did however recommend their HFC xpipe or leaving the stock xpipe if emission testing is a concern, which it is for me. The additional heat may accelerate wear on the cats, but the engine will be just fine.

I think you are missing my point. It's great that you are able to win races but that is not at all what I'm commenting on nor is it my goal. Again, nobody is denying that these cars are fast with any level supercharger. The smooth way in which the S65 builds power, particularly while cruising at normal RPM, just is not "scary" compared to a car with more torque. Will it push you in your seat if you punch it from 6k RPM? Sure. Will it feel the same as a turbo car or American V8 with an extra 100-200ft lb of torque and the same power, especially under normal DD circumstances? No, regardless of transmission.

I've been running the 625 kit with both sets of stock cats without a single issue. I keep them on for noise and emissions testing. My exhaust is loud enough as is