Official S65 Bearing Specification/Clearance Wiki

[Epacy2]

Well hell, ain't this lovely. 2008 launch M3 with 57k miles. I for sure have the 88/89 bearings.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Epacy2

Well hell, ain't this lovely. 2008 launch M3 with 57k miles. I for sure have the 88/89 bearings.

Careful, that's right around the mileage that I've seen a lot of the 08's go...

Send an oil sample to blackstone as soon as possible.

These are starting to surface at local dealerships from what I've seen.

[bde]

Since we are concentrating on 08 models with older bearings specification, how come 2011's also have this with newer bearings?

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by bde

Since we are concentrating on 08 models with older bearings specification, how come 2011's also have this with newer bearings?

Because it seems to be a clearance problem, not a bearing problem.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Because it seems to be a clearance problem, not a bearing problem.

The newer bearings have a bigger clearance!

[Helmsman]

Anyone received solid confirmation on when the new 702/703 bearings where started to be used in the S65's?

Thanks

Edit: And wether phase in of new while consuming old stock, i.e parallel production, or a clean cut date when new bearings was fully introduced into production.

[schlichtm3]

also interest and are there already experiences with the new 702/703 ?
Because i drive a 04/2011 m coupe.

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Anyone received solid confirmation on when the new 702/703 bearings where started to be used in the S65's?

Thanks

[SenorFunkyPants]

There is no hard data on when the lead free bearings were introduced.
There is the date set by the EU for certain exemptions from the RoHS regulations regarding lead in bearings (ended 2011 - july I think).
There are the dates when the part numbers for the bearings changed (in Realoem) - different date for the top bearing compared to the bottom bearing shell.
So really only BMW know for sure.
There is no apparent improvement in reliabilty produced by the new lead free bearing type.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There is no hard data on when the lead free bearings were introduced.
There is the date set by the EU for certain exemptions from the RoHS regulations regarding lead in bearings (ended 2011 - july I think).
There are the dates when the part numbers for the bearings changed (in Realoem) - different date for the top bearing compared to the bottom bearing shell.
So really only BMW know for sure.
There is no apparent improvement in reliabilty produced by the new lead free bearing type.

[bde]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There is no hard data on when the lead free bearings were introduced.
There is the date set by the EU for certain exemptions from the RoHS regulations regarding lead in bearings (ended 2011 - july I think).
There are the dates when the part numbers for the bearings changed (in Realoem) - different date for the top bearing compared to the bottom bearing shell.
So really only BMW know for sure.
There is no apparent improvement in reliabilty produced by the new lead free bearing type.

Perhaps BMW is just keeping quiet about the benefit of the newer bearings to avoid potential lawsuits for the older specification bearings, but, yet we still see these failing on 2011 and up models. In fact 2011 seems like one of the more common bearing failure years on the E9X M3.

Maybe the bearings were changed due to some EU lead regulations - we will never really know. The point being they still seem to fail just like the old ones did even (maybe not as often) though they are about 3+ times stronger...

Anyhow, this whole rod bearings business is a travesty on BMW's part...

They should definitely goodwill engine replacements for proven rod bearings failures on stock cars with proper maintenance and driving patterns.

[Helmsman]

Makes total sense, BMW would certainly not agree that they changed to sort quality.

Still, one would think the dates for change and even background would slip out at some point... that day I'll be around with ears wide open...

Another thing tha makes me wonder is that most bearing failures seem to be reported in N.A. Believe "only" around 50% of the cars went that way so still curious why we for instance don't get many (any?) reports in EU..? Maybe we're simply less active on the forums over here, but still strange.

cheers

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by bde

Perhaps BMW is just keeping quiet about the benefit of the newer bearings to avoid potential lawsuits for the older specification bearings, but, yet we still see these failing on 2011 and up models. In fact 2011 seems like one of the more common bearing failure years on the E9X M3.

Maybe the bearings were changed due to some EU lead regulations - we will never really know. The point being they still seem to fail just like the old ones did even (maybe not as often) though they are about 3+ times stronger...

Anyhow, this whole rod bearings business is a travesty on BMW's part...

They should definitely goodwill engine replacements for proven rod bearings failures on stock cars with proper maintenance and driving patterns.

A "harder" surface is not a good thing.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

A "harder" surface is not a good thing.

+1

A harder bearing surface is more likely to damage the journal in the event of metal to metal contact during cold starts and boundary lubrication conditions.

[bde]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

+1

A harder bearing surface is more likely to damage the journal in the event of metal to metal contact during cold starts and boundary lubrication conditions.

In that case all the years are seemingly equally affected and 2008-9 are more prominent simply because they come off warranty and people mod them more often vs later years. Or perhaps they are just driven more vs the later ones.

In any case, the addition of a supercharger simply exacerbates the problem and makes it come to light sooner vs a non-tuned vehicle.

[bde]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Makes total sense, BMW would certainly not agree that they changed to sort quality.

Still, one would think the dates for change and even background would slip out at some point... that day I'll be around with ears wide open...

Another thing tha makes me wonder is that most bearing failures seem to be reported in N.A. Believe "only" around 50% of the cars went that way so still curious why we for instance don't get many (any?) reports in EU..? Maybe we're simply less active on the forums over here, but still strange.

cheers

It could be that USA-assembled cars had some sort of tolerance issues. No clue really. I wonder if anyone tracked the manufacturing origin of each failed vehicle.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by bde

It could be that USA-assembled cars had some sort of tolerance issues. No clue really. I wonder if anyone tracked the manufacturing origin of each failed vehicle.

All M's surely have to be manufactored in the same fab - German cars mate.

cheers

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by bde

In that case all the years are seemingly equally affected and 2008-9 are more prominent simply because they come off warranty and people mod them more often vs later years. Or perhaps they are just driven more vs the later ones.

In any case, the addition of a supercharger simply exacerbates the problem and makes it come to light sooner vs a non-tuned vehicle.

Or just more mileage. I suspect in a couple of years, it will be the 10-11 models suffering, new bearings or not; and, possibly crank damage on top. I'd rather have the older bearings with the WPC treatment than the new ones.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by bde

It could be that USA-assembled cars had some sort of tolerance issues. No clue really. I wonder if anyone tracked the manufacturing origin of each failed vehicle.

All M cars are manufactured in the same plant in Germany.

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Or just more mileage. I suspect in a couple of years, it will be the 10-11 models suffering, new bearings or not; and, possibly crank damage on top.

Agreed

I'd rather have the older bearings with the WPC treatment than the new ones.

So would I. Except that you can't. The 088/089 leaded bearings have gone out of production for over 3 years now, and there aren't any left on the market. The only bearings available now are the unleaded OEM 702/703 ones.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Petros

The 088/089 leaded bearings have gone out of production for over 3 years now, and there aren't any left on the market. The only bearings available now are the unleaded OEM 702/703 ones.

Under the EU exemption, BMW would be allowed to have the older lead faced bearings manufactured for cars built before the exemption cut off date (July 2011)...unfortunately they don't seem inclined to.

[gobuffs]

Just to add a data point.

I have my S65 installed in another chassis and the wiring is slightly different...so I have control over whether the fuel pump is on or not. I also have a mechanical oil pressure gauge installed so I can read actual oil pressure in real time.

Since I replaced the bearings I have been cranking the motor til the oil pressure gets up to 40 psi. Then I stop cranking and turn the fuel pump on. As I am doing that the oil pressure drops to between 15-20psi. I do this to minimize wear during no/low oil pressure conditions.

Just out of curiosity, I started it with the fuel pressure so it starts immediately. In this situation it appears that oil pressure is essentially zero for around 2 seconds, maybe a bit more (a quarter second) until there is 35 psi of oil pressure (initial spike is to 35 psi). It then takes about 2 more seconds to get to full oil pressure (around 85 psi).

[Morally Gray]

Can someone smarter than me give me a hand with a question.

I though I had a bearing issue, took the bearings out (2010) and the part number says 088 089 (not sure if that should be 088/089). I had 16 of them in my factory engine.

The replacement VAC bearings I have are 702 703 (702/703).

Now on the first page is says there should be different bearings for top and bottom, is that correct?

[pbonsalb]

-702 is different from -703. One is for the top and one is for the bottom. You should have 8 of each. They are also distinguishable by color on the side, red or blue.