E90 Track Impressions (brakes!)

[earlyapex]

I've had the E90 at a couple of track days now (Sebring and VIR). I've got 12 years of DE, instructing and racing experience.

Overall impressions are incredibly favorable. The car is far more balanced than the E46. It simply does everything you'd want it to do (like throttle steer) in a very balanced manner, and is infinitely catchable when it steps out (even when it steps WAY OUT). It's a very fun, capable machine with a lot of power and control. It's also very fast in stock form (very low 2:30s at sebring and mid 2:teens at VIR full course on street tires).

I was also surprised at how well the car could use the entire contact patch of the tire with a highly inadaquate (-1 degree camber) street alignment. The suspension manages dynamic camber changes via roll very well. You still use more of the outside edge of the tire, but it's less than most cars.

However, the brakes aren't up to the same level of capacity and ability as the rest of the car. I went through a set of pagid yellow endurance pads in a day and a half at VIR. These were brand new pads:



The rotors clearly aren't big enough either. Look at how the metal has melted into the cross drilling (also, they were glowing RED! at the end of the back straight on a 50 degree day!):



And on street tires too (albeit Potenza RE11s). Which are INCREDIBLE street tires by the way. Feel like 15% better track tire than PS2s while giving up very little on the street (just a tiny bit harsher ride).

So all of the "theoretical bench racing" on internet forums about single pistons and BMW engineers knowing more than internet junkies is pretty much total pig manure. The car is an outstanding machine, but the brakes are overwhelmed by the power and weight on far less than max-g-braking street tires.

In short, the pads would fade prior to engaging ABS, which is an easy analysis of inadaquate brake size.

If you are a serious track junkie with R-comps, you are going to HAVE to get a BBK for this car.

[lucid]

Nice write up. I agree that the car is very well balanced and easier to drive than what one would think based on its size.

It is not clear if the BBK's actually offer considerably more thermal mass than the stock rotors. I compared the weights of the BBK rotor assemblies to the stock assembly, and the differences do not seem that significant. Some info here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122

BBKs most likely offer better cooling though due to differences in rotor design. Of course, adding forced cooling would help as well, and there is an ongoing discussion on that here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319949

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by earlyapex

I've had the E90 at a couple of track days now (Sebring and VIR). I've got 12 years of DE, instructing and racing experience.

Overall impressions are incredibly favorable. The car is far more balanced than the E46. It simply does everything you'd want it to do (like throttle steer) in a very balanced manner, and is infinitely catchable when it steps out (even when it steps WAY OUT). It's a very fun, capable machine with a lot of power and control. It's also very fast in stock form (very low 2:30s at sebring and mid 2:teens at VIR full course on street tires).

I was also surprised at how well the car could use the entire contact patch of the tire with a highly inadaquate (-1 degree camber) street alignment. The suspension manages dynamic camber changes via roll very well. You still use more of the outside edge of the tire, but it's less than most cars.

However, the brakes aren't up to the same level of capacity and ability as the rest of the car. I went through a set of pagid yellow endurance pads in a day and a half at VIR. These were brand new pads:



The rotors clearly aren't big enough either. Look at how the metal has melted into the cross drilling (also, they were glowing RED! at the end of the back straight on a 50 degree day!):



And on street tires too (albeit Potenza RE11s). Which are INCREDIBLE street tires by the way. Feel like 15% better track tire than PS2s while giving up very little on the street (just a tiny bit harsher ride).

So all of the "theoretical bench racing" on internet forums about single pistons and BMW engineers knowing more than internet junkies is pretty much total pig manure. The car is an outstanding machine, but the brakes are overwhelmed by the power and weight on far less than max-g-braking street tires.

In short, the pads would fade prior to engaging ABS, which is an easy analysis of inadaquate brake size.

If you are a serious track junkie with R-comps, you are going to HAVE to get a BBK for this car.

+1
You have summed up pretty well how I feel about mine on track.The only difference is that the holes in my discs are usually filled up 100% when I am finished up after a trackday


That is after 2 sessions

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by lucid

Nice write up. I agree that the car is very well balanced and easier to drive than what one would think based on its size.

It is not clear if the BBK's actually offer considerably more thermal mass than the stock rotors. I compared the weights of the BBK rotor assemblies to the stock assembly, and the differences do not seem that significant. Some info here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122

BBKs most likely offer better cooling though due to differences in rotor design. Of course, adding forced cooling would help as well, and there is an ongoing discussion on that here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319949

Good point. I think it's more of a pad size/caliper size issue than necessarily rotors. Of course, bigger everything helps with heat.

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

+1
You have summed up pretty well how I feel about mine on track.The only difference is that the holes in my discs are usually filled up 100% when I am finished up after a trackday


That is after 2 sessions

Probably the softer stock pads or closer to stock? My stock pads were pretty much gone in a little under 1 day.

Those pagids must be pretty damn hard and sturdy to be able to melt the rotor!

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by earlyapex

Probably the softer stock pads or closer to stock? My stock pads were pretty much gone in a little under 1 day.

Those pagids must be pretty damn hard and sturdy to be able to melt the rotor!

True I am running Hawk HP+'s which work OK,but I manage my brakes quite carefully.There will be some sort of upgrade for next year for sure so I can worry less about conserving the brakes.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

There will be some sort of upgrade for next year for sure so I can worry less about conserving the brakes.

Like to a real track car?

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by lucid

Like to a real track car?

Not having any issues with brakes because you don't have enough horsepower doesn't count!

[Griz]

Originally Posted by earlyapex

And on street tires too (albeit Potenza RE11s). Which are INCREDIBLE street tires by the way. Feel like 15% better track tire than PS2s while giving up very little on the street (just a tiny bit harsher ride).

Just picking up on your side comment: I completely agree about the RE11s. My prior 2 sets were RE-01Rs... the RE11s are better in the rain, are more tolerant of cold temps, and are otherwise similar in performance. They're certainly not forgiving though, comfort-wise.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by lucid

Like to a real track car?

Depends on when the GTS is coming to Canada,if at allOtherwise I will do some other brake upgrade,at the least PFC's & rotors or a big brake kit if the GTS does not come to Canada.I would love to have a bullitproof brake setup!
A real track car just opens up too many logistical issues,like where to store the trailer.My wife just yesterday realized that I have 10 wheels for the M3 in the garage!

[BRDHNTR]

I agree with everything that was said, and I'm not pushing my car as hard as you boys are. I contimplated getting a BBK and track wheels with PSC's, but then looked at the cost. I decided on an e46 M3 track car instead. Luckily my parents are building a six car garage, so I can put it over there. I'll hold on to my Carbotech XP10's in case I want to change things up one weekend.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by earlyapex

Not having any issues with brakes because you don't have enough horsepower doesn't count!

A Miata is not in my plansI like horsepower

[lucid]

Originally Posted by earlyapex

Not having any issues with brakes because you don't have enough horsepower doesn't count!

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

A Miata is not in my plansI like horsepower

There are alternatives to the Miata in the M stable.

Seriously, tracking the E9X M3 is not pretty from a financial standpoint--especially if you'll be scolding it on a regular basis...

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by lucid

There are alternatives to the Miata in the M stable.

Seriously, tracking the E9X M3 is not pretty from a financial standpoint--especially if you'll be scolding it on a regular basis...

Divorce or living in the garage is also not an attractive option

[von_zoom]

Wow, the reports above are not very encouraging. I plan on two days at VIR next week, stock everything, but only tracking the E92 two sessions each day. I had planned to push it really hard on two of those track periods. Now, looking at the brake issue, I am not sure about two agressive sessions. Perhaps only one, then inspection. Thanks for the input. I will report my experience after this week end.
vz

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Wow, the reports above are not very encouraging. I plan on two days at VIR next week, stock everything, but only tracking the E92 two sessions each day. I had planned to push it really hard on two of those track periods. Now, looking at the brake issue, I am not sure about two agressive sessions. Perhaps only one, then inspection. Thanks for the input. I will report my experience after this week end.
vz

Do not be that concerned about your brakes even with stock pads.Long as you realize that you cannot stand on them lap after lap.If you notice fade just back up your braking points till the issue goes away.Backing off a bit early,coasting and waiting a second before brake application has an amazing effect on brake life without affecting your lap times very much.If you make an effort to conserve them,you will be fine for a day and you will not be that slow out there.Enjoy the day!

[Jaypod]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Do not be that concerned about your brakes even with stock pads.Long as you realize that you cannot stand on them lap after lap.If you notice fade just back up your braking points till the issue goes away.Backing off a bit early,coasting and waiting a second before brake application has an amazing effect on brake life without affecting your lap times very much.If you make an effort to conserve them,you will be fine for a day and you will not be that slow out there.Enjoy the day!

+1 Exactly what I do with the stock brake setup - dont find you lose much time at all. I find that I might loose a bit of distance before the turn to cars that brake later than me, but by the time we are through the turn I am back right behind the.

A few weeks ago I ran a track that was very demanding on brakes and we ran 28 min sessions, I did not experience any real brake fade and had tons of track time that day.

[M3V8Driver]

Did I read that the OP was using Hawk HP+? If so, that easily explains the fade issue. I feel the stock OEM pads are much better than the HP+ in terms of everything (wear, fade resistance, consistency, temp handling). VZ, do not be afrais. VIR is a track that will reveal any fade characteristics before it becoems a safety issue. You can stand on them lap after lap, but you will notice that you'll need to stand on them earlier and earlier. The good thing is, the pads will never completely give up (fade increases ever-so-slightly and very consistently, but not until later in a multi-session day).

To the Miata comment: Just throw a turbo kit in a Spec Miata and go have the time of your life! It will have the potential to turn faster laps than a stock E9x M3

[von_zoom]

M3V8

VIR is a track that will reveal any fade

M3V8

Thanks, and I agree. I have about 500 laps at VIR and know the track reasonably well. I plan to put some hot laps on the car, and if the brakes complain, so be it. I just continue to be surprised at how quickly they go south. The one time I had the car on the track, at CMP, brakes became an issue very early in the day, and the third time out, fade was evident almost at the end of the first hot lap. That was a quick wake up for me, and I have followed closely all discussions on this forum re pads etc.

Apreciate the info.
vz

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by M3V8Driver

Did I read that the OP was using Hawk HP+? If so, that easily explains the fade issue. I feel the stock OEM pads are much better than the HP+ in terms of everything (wear, fade resistance, consistency, temp handling). VZ, do not be afrais. VIR is a track that will reveal any fade characteristics before it becoems a safety issue. You can stand on them lap after lap, but you will notice that you'll need to stand on them earlier and earlier. The good thing is, the pads will never completely give up (fade increases ever-so-slightly and very consistently, but not until later in a multi-session day).

To the Miata comment: Just throw a turbo kit in a Spec Miata and go have the time of your life! It will have the potential to turn faster laps than a stock E9x M3

The OP was running Pagid Yellows and I was the one running the Hawk Hp+'s.The main reason that I run the Hawks is that they do not transfer pad material as bad as the stock pads so at least they do not vibrate as much as the day goes on.They do fade for sure but I can live with that for now,but intend to improve the brakes for next year.

I have always looked at Miatas with some distain as I do not fit in them with a helmet onMaybe 300bhp could help me to find a way to overcome that!

[kmac1980]

Originally Posted by earlyapex

Not having any issues with brakes because you don't have enough horsepower doesn't count!

How about having a bigger engine with more NEGATIVE horsepower on engine braking! Then you don't need your brakes as much LOL

I heard the Viper's 8.4 has more than 100hp in drag on engine braking

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by kmac1980

How about having a bigger engine with more NEGATIVE horsepower on engine braking! Then you don't need your brakes as much LOL

I heard the Viper's 8.4 has more than 100hp in drag on engine braking

Yeah but you get there faster,so you can get in more trouble