supercharged m3

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I am a big fan of the lower boost options like the ESS 550 or VF 540. Both kits do not require intercooling and are fairly straight forward installs. I think the average DIYer could install either kit easily. I also find the extra power to be more than adequate while not overpowering. I always say, ask yourself what you really want.

I absolutly share your view!

[BESTNDA416]

Ess 650kit or nothing Go big or go home

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by BESTNDA416

Ess 650kit or nothing Go big or go home

exaclty , how do you like it?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

The bearing wear has def been narrowed to a few things, specifically the very high revving design of the motor, low-OEM bearing tolerances (the '09+ part revision called for a larger bearing) & oil lubrication. It is very possible that it's something we can't get around and has to some degree become a "routine" maintenance item. Unfortunately the stress placed on the main crank pulley by supercharging the car might be amplifying the wear on some cars, which is definitely something to be mindful of.

IMO, swapping out for aftermarket upgraded bearings (either the BMW Motorsport or VAC coated bearings) def gives you peace of mind knowing you've got a higher tolerance part installed. But at the end of the day, routine oil analysis is the best way (besides regularly opening the motor & checking the bearings) to look for warning signs. The problem with just checking the oil when he goes to install the blower is that there's no prior baseline analysis, and there is the possibility that the oil analysis might not display the traditional "warning signs" (elevated copper) when the bearings are already worn down.

After I tell you my experience with BMW Motorsport bearings, I'd be interested for you to tell me what you think or if you can shed any more light on this. During my engine build, I acquired some BMW Motorsport rod bearings. They weren't cheap, but not terribly expensive. I gave them to the builder. The engine builder sees they are a coated bearing and refuses to use them because he doesn't like coated bearings. So I sold them to another engine builder; ironically he lost them and never used them. Ever since, I've been trying to find out more about these BMW Motorsport coated bearings. So I asked a very good source of mine who has very deep connections inside BMW Motorsport. I know his inside source is very good because he can get me BMW Motorsport parts that are without a doubt genuine BMW, but don't even appear in the BMW Motorsport catalog. I asked him to check into this and tell me everything he can about the BMW Motorsport bearings. After a few back and forth emails, he tells me there is no such thing as BMW Motorsport rod bearings for the S65.

Fast forward a year or more to the VAC coated bearing thread. Specifically taking a look at this picture of the packaging for the VAC coated bearings by Calico Coatings.



I'm not 100% sure because I don't have any photos, but I'm almost positive that is the EXACT packaging and package marking (except date) as the "BMW Motorsport Bearings" I was sold. So here's my question. You mentioned to the OP to use BMW Motorsport bearings. Do you have any more information about this -- for example any information, links, etc. that can shed light on this and tell me if they actually exist? I suspect I was sold Calico coated bearings and was told they were BMW Motorsport. So I'm really curiuos if there's any more information about this that I can research.

[BESTNDA416]

Originally Posted by banshee350

exaclty , how do you like it?

Love it so much I want more power

enjoy this little video form this pass summer

[dogbone]

The power difference between an NA M3 and a supercharged M3 is a HUGE difference in power. And you don't need the VT650 (with it's extra requirements) to get that kick. The VT625 or similar power offerings from other vendors will absolutely thrill you.

I have had a blower for over two years and the difference is NOT subtle----it is shocking----especially if you're used to the stock power. And even after two plus years, I'm not bored by it. It's still a mind-bending thrill every time the car is at high rpms. Now that said, I track my car a lot, so I am able to push the living shit out of it. Honestly, it is god-damn-frustating driving it on the streets, not because it's hard to drive---it drives as easily as stock, but because you know it has so much power and you can't fully explore that on public roads. You can punch it here and there for kicks, but you have to back off immediately. If I didn't track the car, I'd be a frustrated guy.

Pretty much every person that has driven my car----the first thing they say is, "I didn't realize I would notice the power difference so much."

Get in any blown M3----2nd gear holding around 4500rpms-------and punch it. All I can say is hold the f**k on!!! It's pretty awesome that not only does it take off like a rocket, but it keeps pulling VERY VERY hard all the way to redline---there's no let up or ease back. The stock engine simply does not do that.

Is it more wear and tear on the car? yes. Are there potential issues that don't come up as much on a stock engine? yes. Is it more maintenance? yes (I change my oil after every two track events. Sometimes I have whole-weekend events, so I'm changing my oil on Friday, and then again on Monday for the next set of events....) Will you get caught in the web of modding the car more and more? yes. Is any vendor of blower 100% reliable and no issues ever? no. Did that stop me from doing it?.......... no!

My final note to you is this: DO NOT get into a supercharged M3 unless you are serious about doing it. I know this may sound stupid, but the power will haunt you after you experience it. You WILL be hooked. Getting back in your car will feel like driving through a pool of jello----everything is now slo mo compared to what you just experienced. You will not be thinking about cracked engine blocks or maintenance schedules. You will only be thinking about how you can get your hands on one. Don't say I didn't warn you!

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by BESTNDA416

Love it so much I want more power

enjoy this little video form this pass summer

have a cbr 1000rr is too slow for me!! need more POWER lol hopefully tht 650 will do for now

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by dogbone

The power difference between an NA M3 and a supercharged M3 is a HUGE difference in power. And you don't need the VT650 (with it's extra requirements) to get that kick. The VT625 or similar power offerings from other vendors will absolutely thrill you.

I have had a blower for over two years and the difference is NOT subtle----it is shocking----especially if you're used to the stock power. And even after two plus years, I'm not bored by it. It's still a mind-bending thrill every time the car is at high rpms. Now that said, I track my car a lot, so I am able to push the living shit out of it. Honestly, it is god-damn-frustating driving it on the streets, not because it's hard to drive---it drives as easily as stock, but because you know it has so much power and you can't fully explore that on public roads. You can punch it here and there for kicks, but you have to back off immediately. If I didn't track the car, I'd be a frustrated guy.

Pretty much every person that has driven my car----the first thing they say is, "I didn't realize I would notice the power difference so much."

Get in any blown M3----2nd gear holding around 4500rpms-------and punch it. All I can say is hold the f**k on!!! It's pretty awesome that not only does it take off like a rocket, but it keeps pulling VERY VERY hard all the way to redline---there's no let up or ease back. The stock engine simply does not do that.

Is it more wear and tear on the car? yes. Are there potential issues that don't come up as much on a stock engine? yes. Is it more maintenance? yes (I change my oil after every two track events. Sometimes I have whole-weekend events, so I'm changing my oil on Friday, and then again on Monday for the next set of events....) Will you get caught in the web of modding the car more and more? yes. Is any vendor of blower 100% reliable and no issues ever? no. Did that stop me from doing it?.......... no!

My final note to you is this: DO NOT get into a supercharged M3 unless you are serious about doing it. I know this may sound stupid, but the power will haunt you after you experience it. You WILL be hooked. Getting back in your car will feel like driving through a pool of jello----everything is now slo mo compared to what you just experienced. You will not be thinking about cracked engine blocks or maintenance schedules. You will only be thinking about how you can get your hands on one. Don't say I didn't warn you!

i wanted to stay n/a but the boost is calling me. lol i desperatly need more power in ///M. when i say things might break i mean in the sense of axles,tranny, driveshaft, blowing the motor. ive had some expirience with boosted cars and my buddy has a fully built cummins and little shit always breaks. but hey thts the hobby. its just parts on a cummins are cheaper than a m3.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by banshee350

have a cbr 1000rr is too slow for me!! need more POWER lol hopefully tht 650 will do for now

hehe well if you're used to 0-60 in 2.9 seconds on a CBR1000RR motorcycle and that's not thrilling you.......I'm not sure any amount of power in a 3800 lb street car will give you any thrills......at some point, the power will just spin the tires, and you won't actually go anywhere......

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by dogbone

hehe well if you're used to 0-60 in 2.9 seconds on a CBR1000RR motorcycle and that's not thrilling you.......I'm not sure any amount of power in a 3800 lb street car will give you any thrills......at some point, the power will just spin the tires, and you won't actually go anywhere......

if it goes side ways ill be entertained

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'm not 100% sure because I don't have any photos, but I'm almost positive that is the EXACT packaging and package marking (except date) as the "BMW Motorsport Bearings" I was sold. So here's my question. You mentioned to the OP to use BMW Motorsport bearings. Do you have any more information about this -- for example any information, links, etc. that can shed light on this and tell me if they actually exist? I suspect I was sold Calico coated bearings and was told they were BMW Motorsport. So I'm really curiuos if there's any more information about this that I can research.

I cannot remember where I saw them, but I clearly remember seeing them and knowing that they were the only other coated bearing besides the VAC ones. After spending the past 20 mins, the only S65 coated bearings I can find are the VAC set.


I am sure they are some where out there, I have no idea if BMW just decided to stop selling them after they upgraded to the '09+ OEM-spec bearings. But like I said, the only S65 coated bearings I can find are the VAC ones -- Not that these are bad or any worse than the BMW Motorsport ones, it was just another option.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I cannot remember where I saw them, but I clearly remember seeing them and knowing that they were the only other coated bearing besides the VAC ones. After spending the past 20 mins, the only S65 coated bearings I can find are the VAC set.

I am sure they are some where out there, I have no idea if BMW just decided to stop selling them after they upgraded to the '09+ OEM-spec bearings. But like I said, the only S65 coated bearings I can find are the VAC ones -- Not that these are bad or any worse than the BMW Motorsport ones, it was just another option.

I've only heard of two sets of these Motorsport bearings -- and we both sourced them from the same source. So maybe you heard about them from my build, or maybe from the other build. I wish the other engine builder could find them so I could take another look to see if they were just Calico coated bearings all along.

I'm also curious why you recommended coated bearings to the OP after acknowledging a clearance problem? If one believes there's a clearance problem, then coated bearings will make the situation worse because they add thickness to the bearing and thereby reduce the clearance even further.

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I cannot remember where I saw them, but I clearly remember seeing them and knowing that they were the only other coated bearing besides the VAC ones. After spending the past 20 mins, the only S65 coated bearings I can find are the VAC set.


I am sure they are some where out there, I have no idea if BMW just decided to stop selling them after they upgraded to the '09+ OEM-spec bearings. But like I said, the only S65 coated bearings I can find are the VAC ones -- Not that these are bad or any worse than the BMW Motorsport ones, it was just another option.

whats your take on the bearings that come with the vt2 kit?

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by banshee350

whats your take on the bearings that come with the vt2 kit?

I've never seen them and I'm not engine builder, so it wouldn't be fair for me to comment on them.

IF you do decide to replace your main bearings, it would be best to go to someone who knows engine building, and let them start by looking at the wear on the previous bearings. If there is excessive bearing wear, it might be necessary to order a different size bearing to compensate for excessive wear on the crank shaft.

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'm also curious why you recommended coated bearings to the OP after acknowledging a clearance problem? If one believes there's a clearance problem, then coated bearings will make the situation worse because they add thickness to the bearing and thereby reduce the clearance even further.

I don't see the OP mentioning clearance problems, but bearings can be ordered in different sizes. I am not sure if the VAC coated bearings can be, but it is something to be mindful of.

Never been a fan of HPF (did great things, really exposed the E46 M3s potential for power by adding a turbo kit), there's just been some "issues" with their built motors, most notably MarcusLSB's Turbo E46 M3....

BUT here's a video covering main bearings, different bearing sizing, measuring the crank to determine the bearing sizing, etc and other stuff pertinent to this discussion:

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I don't see the OP mentioning clearance problems, but bearings can be ordered in different sizes. I am not sure if the VAC coated bearings can be, but it is something to be mindful of.

I thought we were all talking about rod bearings...I know the OP was. VAC sells coated rod bearings. There are no aftermarket rod bearings available for this engine, and BMW doesn't make anything other than STD size for rod bearings. There isn't more than one size rod bearing to choose from. VAC (and others) start with a factory bearing and add a non-friction coating to them, which by definition reduces the clearance further.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but when you said the following, I thought you were acknowledging your belief in too little bearing clearance. That's why I wondered why the recommendation for coated bearings. If I mistunderstood, my apologies.

The bearing wear has def been narrowed to a few things, specifically the very high revving design of the motor, low-OEM bearing tolerances (the '09+ part revision called for a larger bearing) & oil lubrication.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Maybe I misunderstood you, but when you said the following, I thought you were acknowledging your belief in too little bearing clearance. That's why I wondered why the recommendation for coated bearings. If I mistunderstood, my apologies.

I think I mixed up the two (Rod vs Main/Crank) --- Main Bearing service would require opening up the engine vs. the Rod Bearing service, which can be done by opening up the oil pan. Good catch, 100% my mistake

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I thought we were all talking about rod bearings...I know the OP was. VAC sells coated rod bearings. There are no aftermarket rod bearings available for this engine, and BMW doesn't make anything other than STD size for rod bearings. There isn't more than one size rod bearing to choose from. VAC (and others) start with a factory bearing and add a non-friction coating to them, which by definition reduces the clearance further.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but when you said the following, I thought you were acknowledging your belief in too little bearing clearance. That's why I wondered why the recommendation for coated bearings. If I mistunderstood, my apologies.

The bearing wear has def been narrowed to a few things, specifically the very high revving design of the motor, low-OEM bearing tolerances (the '09+ part revision called for a larger bearing) & oil lubrication.

so dont go with vac bearings? where do i get the wpc bearings from? and why arent the vac bearings good?

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by banshee350

so dont go with vac bearings? where do i get the wpc bearings from? and why arent the vac bearings good?

I made a mistake by confusing the Rod Bearings & Main/Crank Bearings, and then made the mistake worse by bringing clearance issues into the mix.

The VAC bearings are 100% fine, EAS & Race Precision Motorsport have both used the VAC bearings and documented their service on this forum.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by banshee350

so dont go with vac bearings? where do i get the wpc bearings from? and why arent the vac bearings good?

You may get WPC treated bearings from Auto Talent, EAS, or send a set to WPC yourself and have them treated. I'm not saying VAC coated bearings aren't any good. Quite the contrary. VAC uses Calico, and Calico is widely respected coating. But both Calico and VAC warn you must ensure proper clearance with coated bearings. On a stock crack that doesn't have resized journals for extra clearance, that means the coating is reducing clearance.[1,2]

1. VAC web site: As with all bearings, please check your tolerances and size before installation. Due to the specialize tools needed, professional install recommended. [VAC web site link]
2. Calico Coatings web site: Calico's CT-1 dry film lubricant used on engine bearings, valve springs, oil pump gears, timing and transmission gears is 0.0002" to 0.0004" thick and generally speaking does not need extra clearances. A benefit of Calico Coated bearings is the allowance for tighter clearances. Keeping in mind that bearing clearances of .002" to .003" are typical for High Performance applications. [Calico web site link]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I made a mistake by confusing the Rod Bearings & Main/Crank Bearings, and then made the mistake worse by bringing clearance issues into the mix.

The VAC bearings are 100% fine, EAS & Race Precision Motorsport have both used the VAC bearings and documented their service on this forum.

All recent bearing changes at EAS have been using WPC instead of VAC.

[banshee350]

Originally Posted by regular guy

You may get WPC treated bearings from Auto Talent, EAS, or send a set to WPC yourself and have them treated. I'm not saying VAC coated bearings aren't any good. Quite the contrary. VAC uses Calico, and Calico is widely respected coating. But both Calico and VAC warn you must ensure proper clearance with coated bearings. On a stock crack that doesn't have resized journals for extra clearance, that means the coating is reducing clearance.[1,2]

1. VAC web site: As with all bearings, please check your tolerances and size before installation. Due to the specialize tools needed, professional install recommended. [VAC web site link]
2. Calico Coatings web site: Calico's CT-1 dry film lubricant used on engine bearings, valve springs, oil pump gears, timing and transmission gears is 0.0002" to 0.0004" thick and generally speaking does not need extra clearances. A benefit of Calico Coated bearings is the allowance for tighter clearances. Keeping in mind that bearing clearances of .002" to .003" are typical for High Performance applications. [Calico web site link]

All recent bearing changes at EAS have been using WPC instead of VAC.

I was gonna use the ones that came with the Ess kit, and auto coture motoring quoted me on the bearing install including the bearings but I'm not sure which ones they use.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by banshee350

I was gonna use the ones that came with the Ess kit, and auto coture motoring quoted me on the bearing install including the bearings but I'm not sure which ones they use.

I'm not sure which ones ACM uses either. You will find many people have different opinions. I don't think any one person has the absolute right answer. But it's good to listen and learn from all of them before making an informed decision.

I know one engine builder has said that even with reduced clearance of the coated bearings, that the coating itself makes up for it and has a net benefit. I would consult with ACM and listen to what they have to say.

[edu09]

Originally Posted by banshee350

i want a beast lol. im pretty sure ill get used to the extra power quickly.

Go for the VT2 650 kit, I installed it on my new 2013 M3 and it is just awesome the extra power you get, you wont regret it!