Canadians buying used M3s from the States..?

[GMW]

Originally Posted by TailHappyM3

Really? I'd bet most peolple asking these questions about importing do care though. Afterall, why would they go through the trouble of importing a car to save money?

Yes, I have imported before (saved 8K on a 2 year old 2005 M3 back in 2007) but gave all that back and more on resale. So did the subsequent buyer who tried to trade it in at a dealer. He too lost money on the same car and it was a super clean, low mileage car! Importing was all the rage then though and the dealers were getting pissed off. Not sure much has changed with this dealer attitude.

G'luck everyone and enjoy your cars.

Yes. I bought my M3 because I'm sitting in it for $20k less. If i ever want to sell it, I will, and for market price. You can't compare e46 import to e9x import. That's why I gave my honest opinion and factual savings to the OP when he asked about the process. He isn't asking about resale. I think he's trying to sit in an M3 for less money. That's what it boils down to.
Bye.

[sawzall]

Originally Posted by Lefort

(1) What exactly is the difference between a "Canadian" M3 and an "American" M3? I was under the impression that they were all built in the States, and once one crosses the border and gets registered properly, it becomes a "Canadian" M3.

First of all, the M3 is built in Germany, not North America. There are some slight variances between the Canadian and American versions. For example, Canadian cars have daytime running lights, whereas American cars generally do not. Also, American cars will have use the Imperial scale (i.e. Miles) as the primary scale for their gauge cluster, whereas the Canadian only uses Metric.

Originally Posted by Lefort

(3) In Toronto, how much do we save tax-wise buying private vs. buying from a dealer (in Canada)? The only dealership I've been to was "Venus Fine Cars" in North York because they seemed to have the largest online inventory so I went and checked them out. The car I test-drove and really like colorwise/etc is this one: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/NOR...1128102832006/

You should read this article to understand how HST applies to private vs. used-car dealership sales http://www.wheels.ca/Specials/article/783918.

Originally Posted by Lefort

(4) GMW: So after the 6.1% duty, I assume that I'll also have to pay the standard HST of Ontario (13%), as well as the fees. Was a little confused by the way you split it up saying that you paid 5% GST, then the "remaining" 10% later.. I understand taxes in NS are different but just wanted to confirm you paid a total of 6.1% + 5% + 10% in total taxes.

In Ontario, you would pay the 6.1% foreign vehicle import duty plus HST of 13%.

Originally Posted by Lefort

(5) As for dealing with a seller in the States.. are dealerships allowed to sell to you without charging State taxes and its just that easy? Also.. how terrible of an idea is it to not fly down and test-drive the car etc. and simply assume it drives the same as one tested here and have it shipped up?

This depends on the laws of the states. Some states such as Florida and Texas have out-of-state taxes, so you don't pay state taxes on the purchase of a car as long as it is purchased/delivered out of state, but there is another smaller tax that you do pay. Some other states do not make you pay an out-of-state tax, but you will need to do your research.

I personally wouldn't buy a car without test driving it. Particularly if you're bargain hunting, as there is often a reason why some of the deals are so 'good'. If you're importing a car, make sure you have enough margin to consider flying down and checking out the car, or paying a trusted third party to examine the car. Otherwise, you're just asking to get screwed.

[GMW]

Originally Posted by Lefort

Hey guys.. first off, thanks for the overwelming number of responses and genuine advice.. I appreciate it.

I want to reiterate that I'm a huge car (and M3) newbie and am doing my best to figure out what makes sense for me given my limited sources for information. Very happy I stumbled upon this forum because you guys clearly know what you're talking about.

Here are some of my extremely newbish questions:


(1) What exactly is the difference between a "Canadian" M3 and an "American" M3? I was under the impression that they were all built in the States, and once one crosses the border and gets registered properly, it becomes a "Canadian" M3.


(2)

I can't seem to find '09s in the high 50's.. with ~30,000km they appear to be more in the mid-high 60's range on autotrader.ca..


(3) In Toronto, how much do we save tax-wise buying private vs. buying from a dealer (in Canada)? The only dealership I've been to was "Venus Fine Cars" in North York because they seemed to have the largest online inventory so I went and checked them out. The car I test-drove and really like colorwise/etc is this one: http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/NOR...1128102832006/

I managed to get it down to $76k after tax with a winter set thrown in.. but after seeing some numbers tossed around in these forums I'm staring to feel like that would be a terrible decision.


(4) GMW: So after the 6.1% duty, I assume that I'll also have to pay the standard HST of Ontario (13%), as well as the fees. Was a little confused by the way you split it up saying that you paid 5% GST, then the "remaining" 10% later.. I understand taxes in NS are different but just wanted to confirm you paid a total of 6.1% + 5% + 10% in total taxes.


(5) As for dealing with a seller in the States.. are dealerships allowed to sell to you without charging State taxes and its just that easy? Also.. how terrible of an idea is it to not fly down and test-drive the car etc. and simply assume it drives the same as one tested here and have it shipped up?


Thanks again guys.. and again, sorry for the severe beginnerisms..

At the border, CBSA collects 6.1%. Then, they charge you 5%(GST) on top of total after all fees are applied. Once you return to your province the Registration office looks at your Form 1 (whatever it's called) in blue print to see what CBSA charged you.
This is when you'll pay the remaining provincial taxes. In NS HST is 15%. 5% of which is GST and 10% provincial.
They (NS) charged me an additional 10% on top. Not 15% all over again.
Each province will be different. CBSA collects FEDERAL contributions only.
For Alberta, you still pay the GST at border and ....... nothing else haha

I hope this lengthy response helped.

[kasimmmmm]

Originally Posted by Lefort

(2)

I can't seem to find '09s in the high 50's.. with ~30,000km they appear to be more in the mid-high 60's range on autotrader.ca..

M3 on Ebay

Even if you find an 09 M3 for $55K with only 30K kms, 55K USD (price taken from link above) x 1.2 (20% in taxes) = 66K CAD after importing. Pretty much the same thing!

There was a time when Canadian car prices were significantly higher than US and it was actually beneficial to import a car. In today's market the same does not hold true. I think you only see the mentioned $15K in savings if you buy it brand new or close to new from the US and you have to have hard cash.

I looked into importing a car from the US and dropped the idea once I found out how bad the resale is. I was looking for an 08 though... If I was buying brand new and had hard cash, i'd definately go to the US. Actually, i've never dump 65K hard cash in a depreciating asset, instead i'd rather invest it!

Side note: Alberta only has 5%... Ontario has more than double... 13%, that further washes away the savings.

[sawzall]

Originally Posted by kasimmmmm

M3 on Ebay

Even if you find an 09 M3 for $55K with only 30K kms, 55K USD (price taken from link above) x 1.2 (20% in taxes) = 66K CAD after importing. Pretty much the same thing!

^ This is very true. Porsche and BMW have both been pretty aggressive in their pricing. They've basically reduced the pricing in Canada just enough so that you'll think twice before importing. The margins are not as great as they used to be.

[Twinbo]

OP - check out BMW.ca in their pre-owned section.

I know there is a red 09 e92 for $59,900 (Quebecixan so beware) and there is one more 09 for your price range but I can't remember the specs.

I think there are savings to be had on importing a car but if it is your first time I would suggest finding a broker or leaning heavily on a couple of the guys on here who have done it before.

Good luck and update us on the decision.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by Lefort

Is it possible to buy used from the States paying that specific State's sales tax, have it shipped up, paying any fees/duties/etc at the border, then pay the Canadian sales tax (HST), and wind up paying a significant amount less for your efforts?

You DO NOT need to pay that state's specific sales tax as you are not registering the car in that state (note - this may not be true for some states, but is true for all states I checked). So it's "only" 6.1% duty, HST and then a bunch of smaller taxes. Considering that you have to pay HST on car purchased in Canada as well.

[STALKER]

I imported my wife's X5 a few years ago when it was really worth doing so. I was working and living in the US, so bringing things back for me was much easier then most.
I saved over $9000 at the time.
My dealer has never once given me any hassle about the car being a US car, if they do, call BMW Canada, let them verify your VIN, car still has warranty...end of story.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by kasimmmmm

M3 on Ebay

Even if you find an 09 M3 for $55K with only 30K kms, 55K USD (price taken from link above) x 1.2 (20% in taxes) = 66K CAD after importing. Pretty much the same thing!

Not really - you need to add same taxes to Canadian car as well, unless you know a loophole or something... The difference in tax is really 6.1%. This is how it owrk, at least for Ontario:

US Car:

You pay Duty (6.1%) and 5% sales tax at the border
Then you pay 8% when getting car plated
you also pay some insignificant amount for paperwork to RIV (couple of hundred or so).

Total taxes: ~18.5%

Canadian car:


You pay HST (13%) when registering the car.

Total taxes: 13%

So the tax mark up to use in comparison is 6.5%, not 20%...

[Red_light]

thanks for sharing your experience GMW

[884487]

I looked for 2 months in both the USA and Canada for the 2008 I just bought.
Never did I see an equivelent car (either US or Canada) for sale in Canada for price I just paid. Same equipment, miles, condition and 1 owner. I am particular about what I like and want.

As for "taking a bath" on resale, I just dont see it. The car should never be worth less than the price for the same car in the US plus import fees. Why? Because just like we are haivng the discussion of whether it is worth it to import or not, anyone considering importing would buy my car already landed in Canada for the same price they would pay landed here.

While I have never imported a BMW before, i have sold 5 imported cars. On those 5, I always sold for much more than the current US price landed in Canada. Will that hold true on My e90 M3? I dont know, but I am willing to take the risk.

Also, once I have kept the car for 2 or 3 years the market value is significanly less and the the % I might lose for it being a US car is on a lower value. Ie pay $50k today, market price is $30k in 3 years If I save 10% today thats $5k, if I lose 10% in 3 years, that only $3k.

The only real area of risk is the exchange rate. If the Canadian dollar gains value compared to what you exchaged your money at, the equivalent car can be brought in cheaper than your economics.

As for "real numbers"? my numbers are real as all the cars I imported in my company, with every penny accounted for and asssigned to the vehicle.

[GMW]

Originally Posted by Red_light

thanks for sharing your experience GMW

No problem. If anyone has any questions let me know.

[sawzall]

Originally Posted by 884487

As for "taking a bath" on resale, I just dont see it. The car should never be worth less than the price for the same car in the US plus import fees. Why? Because just like we are haivng the discussion of whether it is worth it to import or not, anyone considering importing would buy my car already landed in Canada for the same price they would pay landed here.

+1. I think the US car having lower resale value is a dealer propagated myth. When I offered to trade in my car, the dealer gave me a value $5000 less than the Canadian car value. But within a month, I sold my car privately to another who was actually shopping for a car with the same features as mine, and was also looking in the US. In the end, I sold it at a price in line with Canadian cars. It is all about finding the right buyer for your car - if you've got in demand features, it won't make a difference whether it is US or not.

[Lefort]

Okay so what's the consensus on this one, at $65k +tax (what I've talked him down to..): http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/NOR...1128102832006/

Note that I'm very much a fan of everything about it, including year/colors/convertible. I'm coming to the conclusion that provided it's not *that* bad of a deal.. and I'd probably only save ~$5000 by importing (plus having to deal with the hassle, as well as potentially not find one similar.. after having to fly down etc.. ).. that maybe I'll just go ahead with this one. *sigh* decisions.. =/

[CalgaryX3]

Originally Posted by shizzle

In the end, I sold it at a price in line with Canadian cars. It is all about finding the right buyer for your car.

So, I think we can agree that the resale market for a grey market US import is a niche market, and hence, the potential punters are fewer, thereby taking a US M3 possibly longer to sell than a comparable Canadian model. Just a thought....

I think too, the differences are region specific. Consumers in more affluent provinces (read Alberta) are, in my opinion at least, less likely to settle especially for a caliber of vehicle like the M3, and would rather pay for exactly what they want without the taboo associated with some imported vehicles. Yes, I know, "a fool and his money are easily parted" but this has been my experience having bought and sold a dozen vehicles in as many years, a few of which were imports too.

Asif

[sawzall]

Originally Posted by CalgaryX3

So, I think we can agree that the resale market for a grey market US import is a niche market, and hence, the potential punters are fewer, thereby taking a US M3 possibly longer to sell than a comparable Canadian model. Just a thought....

Asif

I do and I don't agree with your statement. Fact of the matter is that an M3 is a niche vehicle to begin with. I would argue that a lot of the people looking to buy an M3 are enthusiasts (IMHO especially those in the used car market), and as a result, its a niche market in addition to being a niche vehicle. I think someone looking for a good M3 (i.e. with the options they want) won't have an issue with buying an American M3 that was imported.

On the other hand, you're probably less likely to sell to the car to a Canadian who isn't an enthusiast, but might be on the fence about buying an American M3 versus a Canadian 335 (my point being that if the M3 were Canadian they may be more enticed to purchase it).

[GMW]

Originally Posted by Lefort

Okay so what's the consensus on this one, at $65k +tax (what I've talked him down to..): http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/NOR...1128102832006/

Note that I'm very much a fan of everything about it, including year/colors/convertible. I'm coming to the conclusion that provided it's not *that* bad of a deal.. and I'd probably only save ~$5000 by importing (plus having to deal with the hassle, as well as potentially not find one similar.. after having to fly down etc.. ).. that maybe I'll just go ahead with this one. *sigh* decisions.. =/

That's what i paid for a 2011!

[JulieDriving]

I really want to thank those who have imported for sharing their experiences. This is one of the most useful threads I've read!

In particular, thanks GMW, Delta335i and Shizzle for the process details and taking the time to write them out/ explain things to help others.

I believe such spreads are possible, but more likely on an "almost new" vehicle, and you need to be ready to spend the time, research and a lot of hard cash to take advantage of the price differences. I do also believe you can lose a lot of that advantage on re-sale (if re-sale is a concern for you), unless you really don't need to sell and/or can wait for the right buyer, etc.

[kasimmmmm]

^ you pretty much summed it up.
To add to that, people claiming big savings tend to be in provinces that have 5% tax. Ontario has 13% so you end up paying 20% in total, which washes away most of the savings.

[Lefort]

Originally Posted by GMW

That's what i paid for a 2011!

ie. you're saying it's a really bad price? Or just kinda bad? Any direction as to where I should be looking? Because I don't see much in the way of great deals from autotrader.ca or bmw.ca.. (assuming for a moment that I'm not going to go the import route..)

Thanks again,
Sean

[GMW]

Originally Posted by Lefort

ie. you're saying it's a really bad price? Or just kinda bad? Any direction as to where I should be looking? Because I don't see much in the way of great deals from autotrader.ca or bmw.ca.. (assuming for a moment that I'm not going to go the import route..)

Thanks again,
Sean

I think it's a good deal if you're not going to import. If you're still on the fence, find someone with a Manheim account and do a search south of the border. I'm at work today and not able to log in. Last time I checked there were 4-5 2011 e93's in that market.
That same red 09 on Manheim is probably high 40's.

[airwave808]

Originally Posted by Vise

One minor thing to consider when looking at US cars is that they have less options as standard vs Canada... here we get Comfort Access, Cold Weather Package, Bluetooth/BMW Assist, Alarm, iPod/USB, Sunroof (for E90) all standard. Its a small thing but it makes a bit of difference IMO.

Not to mention the previous posts!

+1. I used to live in the U.S. until last year and ordered a 2011 E92 in Canada. It is fairly easy to get a 8% discount with better standard options, not to mention the option of ordering individual exterior / interior. I would have gone through a lot of hassle to get a Monte Carlo Blue in the U.S. but was able to order it here in Canada without any questions. I am not sure about now but before Audiophile stereo package was not even offered in the U.S. among other things.

I think 20% mark up claim is lofty at best and I am not saying it is being misrepresented but I'd like to see more details around options, etc. As in my opinion, if you add up all the options and don't take HST into account then the difference is no more than $8,000 - $10,000. The only way I think this can work is if you get a bare bones used M3 from U.S. from a private seller at a decent discount off of market value.