If the F8x went the same route as the new C63..

[FashionablyFast]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

The guy at the receiving end of my joke was spreading misinformation while trying to "educate" us on what a true ///M is. He was wrong and then back peddled saying ppl were getting "too technical" lmao. When you're wrong you're wrong.

I acknowledged I was wrong, did I not??? I didn't even edit it, I left it up there for all to see and I acknowledged it. How's that back pedaling? It's spelled "pedal" (funny you're implying I'm stupid).

I'm sorry, have you NEVER been wrong on an internet forum before? The rest was my opinion...inline configuration (you disagree?), lighter weight (you disagree?), stiffer chassis (you disagree?). If you disagree with those simple points then you're entitled to disagree...I'm not going to call you out or imply you're stupid for it.

Originally Posted by M3 GT4

Your assesment of what constitute an M car is false. The s55 in the f8x has nothing that makes an M3 engine :

- It uses the same engine block than 13 other bmw models (entry level to suv included) with only post CAD completion small changes (reference s55 and s54 .pdf by bmw) i am still talking about the block of the engine, with the same volumetry than all those models (about which bmw lied a lot in the pre-releases initially stating 3.1 l). Yes it has a few but very limited changes. More like a tuned engine than a dedicated design from the start. It is more generic than any true M car engine block. The E92 S65 being bespoke blows it out completely out of the water in that respect.

- The car as a whole is not significantly lighter at all (again marketing lie). They initially state 350 lbs lighter. False. It is barely 80 lb lighter than the e92.

Now look at what makes at true M3 engine:

- immediate throttle response. s65 check, s55/4 fail
- high revving race inspired engine character. s65 check, s55/4 fail
- distinctive *awesome* m3 engine sound. s65 check, s55/4 fail
- not in any way to be confused as a Mark 2, or second tuned version of the lower x35is line of engines. E92 check. s55 complete fail (it is a 435is II !)
- linear power delivery. E92 check. s55/4 fail
- exclusive engine block. E92 check, s55/4 fail
and maybe the most revealing one :
- engine well matched to the chassis so that there are no throttle modulation issue at the limits. Meaning same response for same foot position on the throttle pedal (something a turbo engine can never win over a NA). S65 win, S55 fail.

We are talking engine in this thread, not just chassis.

I was explaining earlier that I wasn't trying to get overly technical because that creates a roundabout argument. As I stated earlier, we can sit here and list similarities/differences in older M's, E9x's and F8x's all day....there are thousand of similarities AND differences. We can start breaking things down, part by part and it'll never end. That wasn't my intention.
I'm not even saying I disagree with what you're saying because I do agree....
I'm just saying on a simpler note, inline configuration, light weight (even if it's by 80 lbs as you claim) and stiffer chassis. That's it, I wasn't trying to tear down every aspect of it. I didn't even disagree with what you're saying... Again, I have an E92, I like it...I'm on your side. I just have my own opinions regarding the F8x.

[burtonsbs5114]

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by M3 GT4

Now look at what makes at true M3 engine:

- immediate throttle response. s65 check, s55/4 fail
- high revving race inspired engine character. s65 check, s55/4 fail
- distinctive *awesome* m3 engine sound. s65 check, s55/4 fail
- not in any way to be confused as a Mark 2, or second tuned version of the lower x35is line of engines. E92 check. s55 complete fail (it is a 435is II !)
- linear power delivery. E92 check. s55/4 fail
- exclusive engine block. E92 check, s55/4 fail

Are you saying the S54 failed this criteria as well?

[M3 GT4]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

Are you saying the S54 failed this criteria as well?

Typo, sorry. No, I meant S55/N55 not S55/S54. The S55 and N55 are almost twin brother engine blocks except for a few changes on the completed N55 design to make it a "S55". I corrected my post, thanks.

Off course the S54 (E46 M3) is a true M3 engine like the S65.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by Ezio

well definitely not the 1970s anymore. the mass stream market at in least in the US. want bigger, and more luxury cars. Quite frankly most people dont want to be driving around in a small compact car.

the M2 IMO looks like a M4 knock off. lol

Must be a MI thing. Out here in CA, people actually want smaller cars.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Must be a MI thing. Out here in CA, people actually want smaller cars.

Then I guess maybe you should be working for BMW. Cuz they seem to disagree

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by Ezio

Then I guess maybe you should be working for BMW. Cuz they seem to disagree

I dont think I would be happy working there. Not too much, or anything, coming down the pipeline that I am really excited about.

I do agree with you that the m2 is shaping up to be a little Jr M4. If the m2 doesnt do it for me, I honestly may never buy a new bmw again and just go Porsche.

[crypticc]

The point isn't v8. The point is NA. Or at least give it capacity and more lightly blown to help with torque and mpg, but let it feel like NA.

BMW described it best.


That said I'm still looking forward to see if they did things for the m2

[LarThaL]

The proper evolution of the M3 would have been to keep it the same size, lighten it by 150lbs, and give it a 4.4L NA V8 with 500hp, 350lb-ft, and an 8600rpm redline. And there is no reason to take an iconic car and change the name to the M4.

I keep thinking about my next car and I keep wondering about what is there that will clearly be worth spending the money over what my M3 gives me in terms of the overall driving experience

[Law]

[sdshah]

C63 AMG S + Tune + Intake = Jesus. This thing has a lot more potential.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I dont think I would be happy working there. Not too much, or anything, coming down the pipeline that I am really excited about.

I do agree with you that the m2 is shaping up to be a little Jr M4. If the m2 doesnt do it for me, I honestly may never buy a new bmw again and just go Porsche.

the only thing i would buy from BMW would be maybe a luxury 5 series daily driver for a family. I still think they make decent luxury car.

But in terms of the driving experience, others are doing it better.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

The proper evolution of the M3 would have been to keep it the same size, lighten it by 150lbs, and give it a 4.4L NA V8 with 500hp, 350lb-ft, and an 8600rpm redline. And there is no reason to take an iconic car and change the name to the M4.

I keep thinking about my next car and I keep wondering about what is there that will clearly be worth spending the money over what my M3 gives me in terms of the overall driving experience

what will be worth spending money on after owning a E92 ?

a f12 berlinetta seems about right for a RWD, ITB high revving engine.

[Vanmarsenille]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

The proper evolution of the M3 would have been to keep it the same size, lighten it by 150lbs, and give it a 4.4L NA V8 with 500hp, 350lb-ft, and an 8600rpm redline. And there is no reason to take an iconic car and change the name to the M4.

I keep thinking about my next car and I keep wondering about what is there that will clearly be worth spending the money over what my M3 gives me in terms of the overall driving experience

Give that man a cigar.

[M3 Pilot]

991 GT3 with its 6 cyc. 3.8 is making 475hp that revs up to 9000rpm all day everyday. The 997 GT3 RS 4.0 is making 500hp with its flat six.

Hence keeping cost of engine development in mind, if the F8X with a 4L Straight Six or 4L V8 makes 450HP and revs up to 8000rpm, I would've been okay with that assuming the F8X weight savings remain.

However the M3 GTS's 4.4L only making 444hp.

I believe M Division can do it but sales volume speaks louder.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by M3 Pilot

However the M3 GTS's 4.4L only making 444hp.

I believe M Division can do it but sales volume speaks louder.

The GTS was a after thought. IF BMW reworked the whole engine, and added new tech. I think they could have pumped more than 444HP no problem.

but the engine would remain expensive and probably not be quite as efficient as a 3.0L turbo.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

The proper evolution of the M3 would have been to keep it the same size, lighten it by 150lbs, and give it a 4.4L NA V8 with 500hp, 350lb-ft, and an 8600rpm redline. And there is no reason to take an iconic car and change the name to the M4.

I keep thinking about my next car and I keep wondering about what is there that will clearly be worth spending the money over what my M3 gives me in terms of the overall driving experience

^this +111111. I was hoping for a flat plane 4.6L, 9k rpm with 550 hp given Porsche is able to do it with the 918 engine (4.6, 9150 rpm, 608 hp). but your would definitely be more of an evolution. One can only dream.

[duk]

I woulda been happy with 4.2-4.4 liter V8 NA making 450-460hp. Focus should have been on making car lighter by 2-300lbs.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by duk

I woulda been happy with 4.2-4.4 liter V8 NA making 450-460hp. Focus should have been on making car lighter by 2-300lbs.

Agreed.

I say just give the S65 DI and a tune, put it into the improved chassis, cut some weight and I'd be thrilled with it. I'd likely already have one.

[Hagasan41]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

The proper evolution of the M3 would have been to keep it the same size, lighten it by 150lbs, and give it a 4.4L NA V8 with 500hp, 350lb-ft, and an 8600rpm redline. And there is no reason to take an iconic car and change the name to the M4.

I keep thinking about my next car and I keep wondering about what is there that will clearly be worth spending the money over what my M3 gives me in terms of the overall driving experience

Originally Posted by Vanmarsenille

Give that man a cigar.

That man deserves a job at BMW! Completely agree! So glad I have the last generation of a true icon. The M4...not so much!

[Law]

More on aforementioned engine characteristics, from BMW themselves.

High-rev concept.
High RPM, high performance: evolved from motorsport, the BMW high-rev concept enables BMW engines to deliver outstanding performance. It's a key element in the unmistakable and fascinating experience of driving a BMW M vehicle.
In engine design, there are three ways of increasing an engine's power output. The cylinder capacity can be increased, or turbochargers can be fitted - but these two approaches add weight and demand space. The third approach is to design the engine to run at very high engine speeds - and this is the approach that BMW M GmbH has successfully explored for more than thirty years.
The high-rev principle is based on a simple fact: more revolutions per minute means the combustion process happens more frequently and releases more energy. Energy and performance are directly related, so high-rev engines deliver outstandingly dynamic performance.
This approach does, however, put additional strains on the engine components. The pistons in a BMW M engine drive the crankshaft at speeds up to 8,250 revolutions per minute. Such enormous forces subject the engine block to extremely high temperatures and vibrations. For this reason, BMW M engines are constructed using extremely robust materials.
Engine weight plays an important role in determining the overall dynamic performance of a vehicle, and the lightweight high-rev engines created by BMW M deliver an unparalleled level of responsiveness, agile acceleration and thrilling power development at all engine speeds.

Single throttle valves.
By equipping each cylinder of a high-performance M engine with its own single throttle valve, M engineers achieve greater responsiveness at low engine speeds and enhanced spontaneous power output.
Single throttle valves are used in professional motorsports engines, and with good reason: this approach enables a maximum of responsiveness. In each new BMW M powerplant, single throttle valves are also used. In previous models these were controlled mechanically; today their position is electronically controlled.
Single throttle valves are mounted inside the induction pipes channelling air into each cylinder. Compared to a single central throttle valve in the air intake, the M throttles enable a more precise timing, and meter of a precisely-measured volume of air for combustion in each cylinder.

Eight-cylinder high-rev engine.
The eight-cylinder high-rev engine is a perfect example of the high engine speed concept that is key to the thrilling performance of BMW M automobiles. It is featured in the BMW M3 Coupé, and produces up to 309 kW (420 hp) from an engine displacement of 3,999 ccm. Its top torque of 400 Nm is reached at 3,900 rpm, and even above engine speeds of 6,500 rpm, 85% of its maximum torque is constantly available.

The high-rev concept is technologically extremely demanding, with engine speeds reaching 8,300 rpm, but it enables supremely sporting and more reliable responsiveness, better performance and greater efficiency than engines with turbo-charging or with larger displacement. The V8 high-rev naturally-aspirated engine merges motorsports technology with everyday driving usability.
Consistent application of lightweight construction technology and eight electronically-controlled individual throttle valves enable the V8 powerplant to produce thrilling performance. Proven on the racetrack, the use of individual throttle valves is a characteristic of all BMW M engines. They achieve greater responsiveness at low engine speeds and enhanced spontaneous power output.

[STooK]

Originally Posted by Law

More on aforementioned engine characteristics, from BMW themselves.

Thank you for all that, really enjoyed reading them and made me appreciate my car even more.