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06-11-2007, 03:14 PM | #23 | |
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You're somewhat right with you points about the HP competition, but don't forget the whole package. More HP results in more weight due to heavier brakes, drivetrain and other stuff. So it CAN be reasonable for a company not to follow in the "HP war" to keep the car's total weight down. I couldn't swear or proof that it's that way with the M3, but can you or anybody refute it? We're talking about the first M3 with a V8. There are some indications that the next generation will also get the same engine in another expansion stage. I did read anywhere that the development costs for this engine are such high that it has to be used for atleast two model generations. Apart from some fine tuning there are other possibilities to increase the power of the V8, for example higher Revs or more displacement or Direct Injection. So in my oppinion the M3's V8 is far away from being exhausted. Question left is what will BMW do with the CSL engine!? Best regards, south |
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06-11-2007, 03:41 PM | #24 | |
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Interesting point about more hp adds to the weight of other components. I haven't thought of it that way, and wouldn't refute it. It makes sense to me; it could be a possible strategy. But if that is really in their thinking, one would think they would have made it explicit. Your second point: I guess that all has to do with one means by "exhausted". For an engineer who spends years on working on a cutting edge engine even a 1-2% gain could be very significant. To the consumer, maybe not, since the consumer is not familiar with what it takes to add 8 hp to an already well developed platform. I am sure the BMW V8 will gain hp with time--the same way the Ferrari engine will gain hp. Engineers always seem to find a way to extract more power (Well never mind the limits put forward by thermodynamics. Actually many people don't understand those limits, thermal efficiency, etc. The game engineers are playing is not open-ended, and that's why the displacements keep going up). I think the real issue is, how much gain and how quickly. We are talking about 2-3 years for the CSL here. I don't think we'll be seeing 80hp gains or anything if displacement stays the same, but that's my opinion, and we'll all find out when the car comes out! Regards, Last edited by lucid; 06-12-2007 at 02:25 AM.. |
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06-11-2007, 03:48 PM | #25 |
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The M3 Concept car at Geneva was said to contain a number of CSL parts by BMW executives
1 that comes to mind was the Alcantara steering wheel, which would probably feature on the CSL Word is also that it uses a large intake box, that needs the a bigger bonnet bulge and uses both bonnet ports
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06-12-2007, 02:27 AM | #27 |
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06-12-2007, 02:55 AM | #28 |
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06-12-2007, 06:23 PM | #31 |
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I didnt read the entire second page, and I think that lucid's point is as always, an excellent one. But Just to give a little bit of my own thoughts.
The F430 challenge stradalle and the Gallardo superlaggera or lagga w/e the name is.. Are perfect examples that there is always room for more power from factory cars... this is beacause of the balance power vs. drivability/comfort...Ferrari and Lambo both need a (my own made up) ratio of 80:20. The cars have great performance and all but there is still the sacrifice/tradeoff of drivability & comfort...and when the "hardcore enthusiast" models come out (CSL, Challenge Stradale, Superlagg*, Z06, AMG) they up the performance part of the equation and give away the comfort. On to my point...I think that the M3 has a much more balanced ratio, relative to "performance cars" more like 65:35. so uping the power, won't be a biggie. A set of cams and a new tune, will yield at least 40-50chp. Anywho, blah blah blah...There will definately be more room for the CSL's power boost by at least 50HP which by then, wont hurt the fan boys shopping for the new M5/6. :rocks::rocks: (PS. This is one of the best discussions at the board in a while, not that Ive been around ot anything, but still. ) Last edited by replicat; 06-12-2007 at 06:42 PM.. |
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06-12-2007, 07:11 PM | #33 |
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The argument
mofomat, lucid: You guys should watch the insults, I ain't a moderator but I can say you both have good and valid points and really are not disagreeing that strongly. Since it is hard to watch an argument from the sidelines I'll offer my 2 cents....
The per displacement power and torque figures comparing the F430 and the M3 are quite significant. They are roughly 10% better on each on a PER DISPLACEMENT basis - that is huge in anyones book for production NA engines of a similar configuration. I absolutely think BMW positions their cars M3, M5, M6, CSL, etc. carefully. Although they do not appear as exactly the same buyer profile/demographics etc. there is significant overlap. I know quite a few folks who have both M3/M5 or hop back and forth between the two, which ever is newer. Especially when the M3 will perform so closely to the M5 in many areas (and maybe out perform it in some) and will be available with 4 doors BMW has to be careful. They could have got 440 fairly easily but there must be room for the CSL and M5. This is also why I believe the M5 will get a bump in hp to 550 or so sometime soon. BMW may state a preference for "efficient dynamics" and focus on weight distribution and handling vs. max power figures but "up-ing the ante" is the only way to truly compete. Look at the debate and speculation here in the US about the 0-60 time for the new M3. It is not THE most important spec. but we Americans (the largest market for M cars) just can not get it out of our heads. You know as well as I do it is not going to be fun to get smoked in our new M3s in short drags by Evos or WRXs but it will happen. The new M3 really is the V10 less two cylinders. Look at the specs, look at the detailed high resolution pictures and look at the features. What is new, low pressure VANOS - oh boy? Personally, as much as I know the engine is great, it is absolutely an evolution (and a minor evolution at that) of the M5 V10. In contrast both the RS4 and F430 engines are fairly revolutionary. Cheers! |
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06-13-2007, 12:47 AM | #34 | |
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Regards, Last edited by lucid; 06-13-2007 at 06:06 AM.. |
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