E85 usage on ess vt2-625 kit

[M3kingz]

I kno the car has to be tuned for it, but will adding 2-3 gallons give the car a slight bump in power? Or its just not recomended at all?

[Longboarder]

I've been toying this idea, in addition to an enhanced air/water intercooler system.

I am going to mix 3 gallons of e85 on an otherwise full tank of pump 91 and then dyno and monitor AFRs. I plan to do this next week and report back.

[madru17]

are you attempting this on a stock fuel system?

[wrecklessfool]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I've been toying this idea, in addition to an enhanced air/water intercooler system.

I am going to mix 3 gallons of e85 on an otherwise full tank of pump 91 and then dyno and monitor AFRs. I plan to do this next week and report back.

What is this enhanced air/water intercooler you speak of??

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by madru17

are you attempting this on a stock fuel system?

This is a good question since e85 requires 30% more fuel capacity vs pump. With a 16.6 gallon tank and 3 gallons of e85, assuming pump gas here in SoCal is approximately e10, then blending this mix would yield somewhere around e25. e25 vs e10 would yield a 4.5% higher fuel requirement.

For a car already at it's fueling limit, this is dangerous.

In my case, I'm running a lower boost (7.4psi) on the ESS 650 kit that comes with the larger capacity (blue) injectors. Those running 7+psi on a 625 kit with the white/gray injectors have less fueling capacity that I do.

I can watch AFR's on the dyno and stop if I get lean up top.

Originally Posted by wrecklessfool

What is this enhanced air/water intercooler you speak of??

Traditional trunk-mounted water reservoirs with larger capacities like 5 gallons or more turn an ESS S/C M3 into an absolute monster. Powerhaus Performance used it and just set the record for a 1/4 mile ET and trap. EAS used this to get a 162 half mile trap. These are extraordinary results achieved only with significant IAT suppression.

There is another product that doesn't require an ice tank as frankly this is my daily driver and I don't want to give up trunk utility. It uses the Freon in the A/C system to cool the water in the air to water intercooler. It has been used on domestics for years and recently has had success with the Mercedes market. Our ESS air to water intercooler is sourced from those same Mercedes parts. MRF Engineering in Lake Forest is researching if the product designed for Mercedes can be installed on my car.

[W Cole]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

This is a good question since e85 requires 30% more fuel capacity vs pump. With a 16.6 gallon tank and 3 gallons of e85, assuming pump gas here in SoCal is approximately e10, then blending this mix would yield somewhere around e25. e25 vs e10 would yield a 4.5% higher fuel requirement.

For a car already at it's fueling limit, this is dangerous.

In my case, I'm running a lower boost (7.4psi) on the ESS 650 kit that comes with the larger capacity (blue) injectors. Those running 7+psi on a 625 kit with the white/gray injectors have less fueling capacity that I do.

I can watch AFR's on the dyno and stop if I get lean up top.



Traditional trunk-mounted water reservoirs with larger capacities like 5 gallons or more turn an ESS S/C M3 into an absolute monster. Powerhaus Performance used it and just set the record for a 1/4 mile ET and trap. EAS used this to get a 162 half mile trap. These are extraordinary results achieved only with significant IAT suppression.

There is another product that doesn't require an ice tank as frankly this is my daily driver and I don't want to give up trunk utility. It uses the Freon in the A/C system to cool the water in the air to water intercooler. It has been used on domestics for years and recently has had success with the Mercedes market. Our ESS air to water intercooler is sourced from those same Mercedes parts. MRF Engineering in Lake Forest is researching if the product designed for Mercedes can be installed on my car.

Ice tank in a huge resevoir works great for a single glory run but have you experimented with trying a larger intercooler? You could hack up the front clip a bit and install a much larger intercooler. I think "SHADY1" was going to do this on his VF650 kit..

On your 650 kit are you currently mixing in octane booster every tank? Right now I am running a 625 kit because I am in CA and only have access to 91 but if I could mix a bit of E85 in lieu of octane booster every tank it may be worth it to me to upgrade. Please let us know your results.

How are you logging AFRs? I just ordered the BT tool and I read on the forums that the precat o2 sensors are actually wideband?

[W Cole]

Also, not sure if I understand your comment on the 625 vs 650 injectors. Are you just saying by design (boost vs. injector size) the 625 kits have less "headroom"?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by W Cole

Ice tank in a huge resevoir works great for a single glory run but have you experimented with trying a larger intercooler? You could hack up the front clip a bit and install a much larger intercooler. I think "SHADY1" was going to do this on his VF650 kit..

On your 650 kit are you currently mixing in octane booster every tank? Right now I am running a 625 kit because I am in CA and only have access to 91 but if I could mix a bit of E85 in lieu of octane booster every tank it may be worth it to me to upgrade. Please let us know your results.

How are you logging AFRs? I just ordered the BT tool and I read on the forums that the precat o2 sensors are actually wideband?

Actually a water tank mounted in the trunk without ice provide significant cooling advantages over the stock "Mercedes" system used in these kits. It's because the Mercedes system (less than one gallon of water) circulates the water in the hot engine bay. Having the tank (large 5 gal tank) outside the engine bay provides a decline in water temps and therefore IATs. Did you see the vid where Binh pulled on the Porsche Carrera GT on the highway? He certainly didn't stop to fill the tank with ice.

I do mix race gas or Torco with every tank on my 650 kit, however at times I have run straight 91 but kept revs low. If e85 works then I will use that instead.

When I test the e85, I will read AFRs on the EAS dyno. Not sure how they get AFRs (damn I should know by now lol).

[madru17]

i will be doing a trunk tank shortly

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by W Cole

Also, not sure if I understand your comment on the 625 vs 650 injectors. Are you just saying by design (boost vs. injector size) the 625 kits have less "headroom"?

I believe I have a little more headroom than a 625 kit....just because I'm around the same boost as a 625 kit but I have more injector capacity. But this is just speculation on my part.

[madru17]

do you have a protune or off the shelf map?

[W Cole]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Actually a water tank mounted in the trunk without ice provide significant cooling advantages over the stock "Mercedes" system used in these kits. It's because the Mercedes system (less than one gallon of water) circulates the water in the hot engine bay. Having the tank (large 5 gal tank) outside the engine bay provides a decline in water temps and therefore IATs. Did you see the vid where Binh pulled on the Porsche Carrera GT on the highway? He certainly didn't stop to fill the tank with ice.

I do mix race gas or Torco with every tank on my 650 kit, however at times I have run straight 91 but kept revs low. If e85 works then I will use that instead.

When I test the e85, I will read AFRs on the EAS dyno. Not sure how they get AFRs (damn I should know by now lol).

Makes sense. I'd love to see an IAT comparison between the larger trunk mounted and engine mounted resevoir. Not sure if IAT logs on a dyno will simulate real world conditions?

I'll let you guys figure out the right pump and hose routing to use and then copy you

[M33too]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

This is a good question since e85 requires 30% more fuel capacity vs pump. With a 16.6 gallon tank and 3 gallons of e85, assuming pump gas here in SoCal is approximately e10, then blending this mix would yield somewhere around e25. e25 vs e10 would yield a 4.5% higher fuel requirement.

For a car already at it's fueling limit, this is dangerous.

In my case, I'm running a lower boost (7.4psi) on the ESS 650 kit that comes with the larger capacity (blue) injectors. Those running 7+psi on a 625 kit with the white/gray injectors have less fueling capacity that I do.

I can watch AFR's on the dyno and stop if I get lean up top.



Traditional trunk-mounted water reservoirs with larger capacities like 5 gallons or more turn an ESS S/C M3 into an absolute monster. Powerhaus Performance used it and just set the record for a 1/4 mile ET and trap. EAS used this to get a 162 half mile trap. These are extraordinary results achieved only with significant IAT suppression.

There is another product that doesn't require an ice tank as frankly this is my daily driver and I don't want to give up trunk utility. It uses the Freon in the A/C system to cool the water in the air to water intercooler. It has been used on domestics for years and recently has had success with the Mercedes market. Our ESS air to water intercooler is sourced from those same Mercedes parts. MRF Engineering in Lake Forest is researching if the product designed for Mercedes can be installed on my car.

Longboarder,

I would not waste your time with the killer chiller setup. I have tested it on the Dyno and quite frankly it was more trouble than it was worth. We had problems with air pockets that prevented the flow of fluids. It also appeared that the ac system could not keep up with the volume of water and the heat from the intercooler. Stick with the ice tank. The extra water volume helps tremendously.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by binh513

Longboarder,

I would not waste your time with the killer chiller setup. I have tested it on the Dyno and quite frankly it was more trouble than it was worth. We had problems with air pockets that prevented the flow of fluids. It also appeared that the ac system could not keep up with the volume of water and the heat from the intercooler. Stick with the ice tank. The extra water volume helps tremendously.

Interesting thanks Binh. If the M3 AC system can't keep up then that's a deal breaker.

The reason killer chiller looked promising was that at the last airstrip event I attended, I sat idling for 20 minutes before each pass (lines to race were long). Right before a couple of my races, I opened the hood and water reservoir and holy crap it was like 150F. I bet by the end of the run the water temps (and IATs) were 175+. The chiller videos out there show that with the when idling with the AC on, the water temps can drop to 40F. Sure when you do a pass the temps heat up...but starting at 40 degree water vs 150 degree water would make a huge difference I would think.

With your water tank being outside the engine bay I'm assuming the water will not heat up to absurd temperatures since the water is circulating outside the engine bay...but on a 70 degree day I presume it would still be warm (maybe 100F). I guess this would be a good alternative but still wouldn't cool down the water to 40F like killer chiller unless you put ice in the tank.

And back to OP's question - how are you doing on fuel Binh? Do you have the white/grey injectors or the blue injectors? I'm thinking that if you haven't run out of fuel at 10psi, then we can run a couple gallons of e85 at lower psi levels and not worry about hitting the fuel limit.

[M33too]

I'm on blue. A/f is perfect.

[Patrón]

Does anyone have a clue as to what cc/lbs the red ESS injectors are?

I've run3-4 gallons of e85 and the car seems to pull harder in the higher rpm range than reg 93pump. I'm sure it's mostly a placebo affect, but hope to dyno prove this soon.

[BobS]

I don't think adding e85 without tuning will do much. I think the ice tank binh runs makes a big difference on the ESS kit but the 10psi makes the most difference, think about it Longboarder, he's running 2.5-3 psi more than you.....that's a large bump in power, silly to call it a 625 at that point.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by BobS

I don't think adding e85 without tuning will do much. I think the ice tank binh runs makes a big difference on the ESS kit but the 10psi makes the most difference, think about it Longboarder, he's running 2.5-3 psi more than you.....that's a large bump in power, silly to call it a 625 at that point.

I agree 100% regarding the ice tank and pulley. You guys get pump 93 we don't so the idea of mixing a couple gallons of e85 with a full tank of 91 could cheaply get us to around 93 effective octane. E85 also burns cooler in the combustion chamber so it's easier to hit max timing targets.

[BobS]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I agree 100% regarding the ice tank and pulley. You guys get pump 93 we don't so the idea of mixing a couple gallons of e85 with a full tank of 91 could cheaply get us to around 93 effective octane. E85 also burns cooler in the combustion chamber so it's easier to hit max timing targets.

Gotcha! I forgot about crappy gas in cali. Pretty much the only thing i'd dislike about living there... lol

[Weyne Masters]

So I'm my country it's easy to find 95 gas,and I want add few Gal of ethanol.what do you think about my sc is vt2-625 straight puley.

[8k3]

Originally Posted by Weyne Masters

So I'm my country it's easy to find 95 gas,and I want add few Gal of ethanol.what do you think about my sc is vt2-625 straight puley.

Careful, 95ron is not 95 R+m/2. 95ron is essentially 91 in the US

[Weyne Masters]

Our fuel is 95 AKI or 102 rom