M3 compared to C63 AMG

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

So you heard a sound clip of the car, but have you actually started one up yourself?

It is difficult to compare the details of each car unless you have actually been inside them both. This is especially the case if you have experienced one car in the flesh, and not the other...this makes for somewhat of a skewed assessment.

It might sounds different in different locations. Are you sure you've heard the car in all permutations in every acoustic situation? Is it echoing off a building? How about in a tunnel? In a canyon? Down the straight at a track? In an open field? I think sounds clips of different cars sound different and I believe I can tell which sound "good" and which do not. It's subjective, that's all I'm saying. Are you seriously saying that every rational human being that sees/hears the MB in person is going to rank every one of the items listed better than the BMW? If so, I'll run right out and prove you wrong. (<= joke)

Now my curiosity is peaked though, anyone know if there is a C63 in the Atlanta area (there wasn't four months ago and I still can't find one)? In the interest of science, I'd like to see if it's subjective if you've actually been inside them both or only subjective over the Internet. The closest one I can find is in Birmingham and I like science but not that much.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by jm1234

It might sounds different in different locations. Are you sure you've heard the car in all permutations in every acoustic situation? Is it echoing off a building? How about in a tunnel? In a canyon? Down the straight at a track? In an open field? I think sounds clips of different cars sound different and I believe I can tell which sound "good" and which do not. It's subjective, that's all I'm saying. Are you seriously saying that every rational human being that sees/hears the MB in person is going to rank every one of the items listed better than the BMW? If so, I'll run right out and prove you wrong. (<= joke)

Now my curiosity is peaked though, anyone know if there is a C63 in the Atlanta area (there wasn't four months ago and I still can't find one)? In the interest of science, I'd like to see if it's subjective if you've actually been inside them both or only subjective over the Internet. The closest one I can find is in Birmingham and I like science but not that much.

I think you should go check out the C63 for fun...it doesn't have to be for science. My argument is rather simple: seeing pictures of the M3 and hearing sound clips of it online is one thing, but getting behind the wheel of one and taking it out for a drive is a different story. I'm not really trying to get into the whole objective/subjective debate, I'm just responding to your earlier criticisms of the C63, which appeared to be based solely "online" experience.

The interior shots of the C63 that I have seen online are NOT an accurate representation of the interior in real life. The seats are incredible in terms of feel (unless you're huge, then they're snug), the AMG nappa leather is phenomenal, and the black birdseye maple trim is elegant yet sporty (hope that doesn't sound too commercial-ish), and the steering wheel is great. Also, the pop-up nav screen looks a whole hell of a lot better in person and I would take the COMAND system over iDrive any day.

All that being said, I still love the M3 interior as well. I appreciate both cars equally for what they bring to the table.

[lucid]

The M3 interior gets a passing grade for me, nothing more. Kind of bland and not particularly inspiring--as if the designers did not want to commit to anything.

I can't say I like the C63 interior more based on what I've seen in the pics. The instrument panel is a bit of a turn off for me there.

I don't understand why the M3 can't have a big fat tachometer at the center of the panel either. I know it's not a Ferrari, seats 4, is a street car, and all that jazz, but if you're going to stick in a V8 that revs up to 8400 rpms that you keep on saying is "race-inspired", why not put the tachometer at the center and make it big. How can that hurt but give the interface/car more character? The GTR has it. Is it more of a race car than the M3? I don't think so.

[gtr]

I can't decide between these two and cannot find a decently priced 997 GT3.

I've been thinking since both of their release and now i'm also looking at Z06's and Evo MR because it's giving me a headache.

[ajmbmwweb]

Originally Posted by jm1234

One sound clip of the C63 was enough to convince me I didn't want anything to do with the car. Too loud and constantly "there". How can this not be subjective?

I think the inside has too many buttons and pop up nav screens are tacky. Especially a screen that doesn't have any shielding from sunlight through the sunroof (does the C63 even have a sunroof?). Can you really say the inside of the C63 is unequivocally "better" than an M3? Not in my opinion.

The seats have been described as "too firm" by more than one review.

I think that exhaust sound, seats and inside are all subjective. Unless you are talking performance numbers then everything else is subjective. I'm not saying that the M3 is the better car but if they both had the exact same performance numbers I'd still pick the M3 specifically because of the characteristics you list as "better" in the C63. I wouldn't describe the decision as objective in any way.

I think people generally understand what a nice engine sound is, so to a degree is is not subjective. The exhaust sound on the c63 is bar none one of the best out there, especially for a sedan. If you dont like the sound of a throaty exhaust, then maybe you prefer your car to be quieter, in which case the c63 is too loud, but still has a great exhaust. the sound is also not intrusive in the cabin unless you really hammer the pedal.

as was said above, the COMMAND system is much better than the idrive system, and there have been numerous complaints on this forum about the intuitiveness of the navigation system in the m3. The c63 dash seems to have even fewer buttons than the m3 dash. there is barely anything to distinguish the m3 dash from a regular 335 coupe, and if you dont order the nav option, you get a terrible looking dash.

the seats in the C63 are unquestionably better than the m3's. they are supportive, and have real side bolsters that close on your sides, not air bladders that inflate like the m3. they are no more firm than any other German make. in fact, the porsche 911 sport seats, which are excellent, are even firmer. again, if you dont find the seats comfortable (maybe they are too bolstered, or too narrow), then i would still suggest to you that the seats are far superior from a sporting standpoint.

i would also suggest to you that you go look at the car, and look at it without bias. i am a real m car fan, and i absolutely love my e46 m3. i am both excited by the e92, and disappointed by it as well. mercedes has done a great job with the c63, and its definitely worth a look. the decision is not objective, but there are objective components to it. and they dont have the same performance numbers, the c63 is faster and it feels it.

finally, like i said in my post, i havent made up my mind yet due to my not having driven the 2 variants of the cars that i would buy. i know this is a bmw forum, but i think you like most people want the best car for yourself, and as a bmw m3 fan, im telling you not to discount the c63. believe me, i am sincerely hoping that when i drive the dct m3 next week, i will go back to being an m car fan through and through.

[gtr]

I'm probably getting a E90 because when Benz offer their DSG version on their C63 i probably don't want the auto version. Also i've called many benz dealer and I can get more of a discount on the M not to mention less gas tax and free maintance.

[Keto]

Originally Posted by ajmbmwweb

I think people generally understand what a nice engine sound is, so to a degree is is not subjective.

You really don't understand what "subjective" means, I think. "Nice" is not an objective word, for example. Neither is "better", "feel", etc. Sound and looks are entirely subjective. Even if 99% of car buyers think a red Ferrari is gorgeous it's still a subjective opinion.

Stop trying to give your opinions weight by labelling them as objective. Your entire post is subjective. Your opinion is certainly as worthwhile as anyone else's, however. I disagree with several statements you've made, but that's not a big deal.

[BMW-videos.com]

How about weight, i'm not sure why i'm not seeing a weight comparison. i'd do the research but right now I do no have the time. Something tells me the another explanation as to why the C63 may not be as fast as an M3 is its weight. If hey were equal rape, the M3 would most likely get raped.. but this is discounting suspension comparison, aerodynamics, downforce etc.

[Hans Delbruck]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Hans, I take it you are well past the "break-in" period now. How does the car feel now that you can let her rip?

It feels incredible. I also realized I had not been pushing the gas pedal down hard enough to get to full throttle, LOL. The resistance point that would initiate "kickdown" is pretty stiff. Maybe my right foot is just timid about unleashing the beast. The car is sweet and spins the rear tires very easily.

I just filled out a JD Power report and they asked about issues, likes and dislikes. They asked tons of things, from "rattles? coming from where?" to "are the door handles difficult to pull" and "is the sound of the door closing pleasant." No wonder some cars suffer such bad reviews... people are given so many opportunities to complain. I couldn't believe the amount of detail! But I seriously only had one issue, with the cam position sensor which was an easy fix. They asked what I would improve and I could only come up with two things: Larger gas tank would be nice and I would like the iPod to display info in the Nav, rather than just show info in the center gauge cluster.

The car is completely solid and I am very happy I made this choice.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

I just filled out a JD Power report and they asked about issues, likes and dislikes. They asked tons of things, from "rattles? coming from where?" to "are the door handles difficult to pull" and "is the sound of the door closing pleasant." No wonder some cars suffer such bad reviews... people are given so many opportunities to complain. I couldn't believe the amount of detail!

The JD Power new owner survey is rediculous. I remember hearing that half of the complaints they had on Hummers were that they got poor fuel economy.

And Hans, you descriptions of the AMG are very seriously swaying me.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

It feels incredible. I also realized I had not been pushing the gas pedal down hard enough to get to full throttle, LOL. The resistance point that would initiate "kickdown" is pretty stiff. Maybe my right foot is just timid about unleashing the beast. The car is sweet and spins the rear tires very easily.

Outstanding! You have just made my wait even more agonizing sir. Good to hear that you are enjoying the beast.

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by ajmbmwweb

I think people generally understand what a nice engine sound is, so to a degree is is not subjective. The exhaust sound on the c63 is bar none one of the best out there, especially for a sedan.

Expand your horizons, I wouldn't want to own that sound and hear it every day. It's not a question of if it's a nice engine sound, it's a question of if it's a nice engine sound for me. Millions of people evaluate music from recordings. We are talking about the noise made by combustion gases exiting at high velocity from a welded metal tube created on an automated assembly line. It's not a finely tuned instrument. I think the technology used to record and evaluate the combined sound of 100's of high quality hand made instruments can capture a car exhaust sound accurately enough that to within a certain degree of accuracy I can decide what is and is not likable by me. I've heard dozens of sound clips and I get the exact same impression every time.

An AC Cobra (

) doesn't sound anything like a Ferrari Enzo (http://www.revver.com/video/443719/ferrari-enzo-sound/) and both are considered "nice" engine sounds. If you agree they don't sound anything alike can you objectively say which is better? Personally, I like the Ferrari better. It's easy to choose if you think it's subjective.

Originally Posted by ajmbmwweb

The c63 dash seems to have even fewer buttons than the m3 dash. there is barely anything to distinguish the m3 dash from a regular 335 coupe, and if you dont order the nav option, you get a terrible looking dash.

This is an example of an objective measurement. The definition of a "button" is subjective but with objective criteria. I count ~40 buttons in the C63 and ~30 in the M3. I can't imagine a way to bend the definition of a button enough to support the conclusion that the M3 has more buttons. I'm curious what you think distinguishes the C63 dash from the C350 dash that doesn't distinguish the M3 dash from the regular 3 series dash?

Originally Posted by ajmbmwweb

the seats in the C63 are unquestionably better than the m3's. they are supportive, and have real side bolsters that close on your sides, not air bladders that inflate like the m3. they are no more firm than any other German make. in fact, the porsche 911 sport seats, which are excellent, are even firmer. again, if you dont find the seats comfortable (maybe they are too bolstered, or too narrow), then i would still suggest to you that the seats are far superior from a sporting standpoint.

I've been inside an E63. It wasn't enough to make me feel that AMG had anything over the M3 in that regard from my perspective. I didn't sit in the E63 and go "holy cow, I gotta have me that seat! ". It's a calculated conclusion. As I said, I'm not going to wait indefinitely on the chance that MB/AMG might one day decide to make a C63 widely available. I would love to see one in person but from what I saw of what I assume is a comparable seat, I wasn't impressed. I reach conclusions on subjective criteria (not acceleration, braking distance, slalom speed, track speed, etc...) based on the information available. I'm not saying that anyone selecting either car is right or wrong. I'm saying that certain criteria are subjective and that's a simple fact. My wife's side of the bed has a select comfort number of 35, my select comfort number is 65. Neither of us is "right", it's really just a subjective criteria. Same with car seats.

In any case, if this stuff is so objective, then why do I need to see either car in person or even just pictures and sound clips if I can't find one in person? Can't I just read a magazine review and then buy the car that the reviewer has "objectively" decided is the better car? The objective conclusion by the majority of magazines was that the M3 is the better car. If I was guessing, I'd guess that your objective conclusion is that those objective conclusions are wrong, right? I think that's good for you, but then again I think these things are subjective and we can have opposite opinions and both be "right". Just don't tell me that "objectively" the C63 is the better car because then you are wrong. Objectively it accelerates faster, but that isn't the definition of a "better car".

[ajmbmwweb]

Haha, thanks for the english lessons buddy. Nobody is trying to give their opinions weight by labeling them as objective. certainly i dont do this anywhere in my post, so maybe before you tell me im doing so for saying a nice engine note is "not entirely subjective", you could read my post again. in fact, i think i say that the whole decision process is "not objective".

i dont present my views as concrete, im just writing my opinion, and its cool that people dont agree (you obviously dont). im glad you disagree, and id rather you have written why than misrepresent what i said, since as i explained i am trying to make a decision. im not writing on this forum to preach, im writing to initiate discussion and bring in other views. perhaps i should have put more IMO's in my paragraph or whatever, i just thought it was generally understood as an opinion.

Originally Posted by Keto

You really don't understand what "subjective" means, I think. "Nice" is not an objective word, for example. Neither is "better", "feel", etc. Sound and looks are entirely subjective. Even if 99% of car buyers think a red Ferrari is gorgeous it's still a subjective opinion.

Stop trying to give your opinions weight by labelling them as objective. Your entire post is subjective. Your opinion is certainly as worthwhile as anyone else's, however. I disagree with several statements you've made, but that's not a big deal.

[ajmbmwweb]

Originally Posted by jm1234

Expand your horizons, I wouldn't want to own that sound and hear it every day. It's not a question of if it's a nice engine sound, it's a question of if it's a nice engine sound for me. Millions of people evaluate music from recordings. We are talking about the noise made by combustion gases exiting at high velocity from a welded metal tube created on an automated assembly line. It's not a finely tuned instrument. I think the technology used to record and evaluate the combined sound of 100's of high quality hand made instruments can capture a car exhaust sound accurately enough that to within a certain degree of accuracy I can decide what is and is not likable by me. I've heard dozens of sound clips and I get the exact same impression every time.

An AC Cobra (

) doesn't sound anything like a Ferrari Enzo (http://www.revver.com/video/443719/ferrari-enzo-sound/) and both are considered "nice" engine sounds. If you agree they don't sound anything alike can you objectively say which is better? Personally, I like the Ferrari better. It's easy to choose if you think it's subjective.



This is an example of an objective measurement. The definition of a "button" is subjective but with objective criteria. I count ~40 buttons in the C63 and ~30 in the M3. I can't imagine a way to bend the definition of a button enough to support the conclusion that the M3 has more buttons. I'm curious what you think distinguishes the C63 dash from the C350 dash that doesn't distinguish the M3 dash from the regular 3 series dash?



I've been inside an E63. It wasn't enough to make me feel that AMG had anything over the M3 in that regard from my perspective. I didn't sit in the E63 and go "holy cow, I gotta have me that seat! ". It's a calculated conclusion. As I said, I'm not going to wait indefinitely on the chance that MB/AMG might one day decide to make a C63 widely available. I would love to see one in person but from what I saw of what I assume is a comparable seat, I wasn't impressed. I reach conclusions on subjective criteria (not acceleration, braking distance, slalom speed, track speed, etc...) based on the information available. I'm not saying that anyone selecting either car is right or wrong. I'm saying that certain criteria are subjective and that's a simple fact. My wife's side of the bed has a select comfort number of 35, my select comfort number is 65. Neither of us is "right", it's really just a subjective criteria. Same with car seats.

In any case, if this stuff is so objective, then why do I need to see either car in person or even just pictures and sound clips if I can't find one in person? Can't I just read a magazine review and then buy the car that the reviewer has "objectively" decided is the better car? The objective conclusion by the majority of magazines was that the M3 is the better car. If I was guessing, I'd guess that your objective conclusion is that those objective conclusions are wrong, right? I think that's good for you, but then again I think these things are subjective and we can have opposite opinions and both be "right". Just don't tell me that "objectively" the C63 is the better car because then you are wrong. Objectively it accelerates faster, but that isn't the definition of a "better car".

Im not going to argue with you over which sound is nice or not, thats not my intention. im just giving you my opinion on the two cars, im not trying to force my views on you, so stop reacting as if i am. ive heard plenty of exhaust sounds, so my horizons are adequately expanded. im just another car guy giving you (a car guy who hasnt driven the c63) my opinion on both cars.

i think its already been said, but ill say it again. the engine note on the c63 cant really be replicated through your computer speakers. people on youtube recording the exhaust sound are hardly using professional grade sound equipment to capture the noise. if you dont like it, thats cool, but it doesnt sound like it does on the net. and oddly enough, the exhaust from the modern performance car is like a finely tuned instrument, companies go to great lengths to fabricate a sound from the exhaust. so in this case, you would be listening to a finely tuned "instrument" of sorts through a recording that cant actually capture it properly.

you are right about the number of buttons on the dashes. sorry, i didnt count them before. it just felt form the cockpit of both cars that the c63 has fewer buttons, because the dash layout -in my opionion- is better in the merc. about the comparison of m3-3 series and c63 -c350, part of my answer would be that the c class already has imo a better looking dash, with simpler to use controls. the trim on the c63 is a bit more upgraded that the c350, leather on the doors, etc. again, i didnt expect to have to defend my view so literally, so suffice it to say that my opionin is that the c63 has a better interior, and i encourage you to go look at both. one thing of note however, is that the overall shape of the dash remains intact in the merc whether you order the nav option or not, whereas this is not the case in the m3/3series (imo)

with the e63, again, not to tell you i am right and you are wrong, but i would want you to know that the c63 interior is very different that the e class, and the seats are miles better imo in the c63. they are completely different seats. i dislike the e class immensely, as i do most mercedes. once again, the c63 is not like other benzes.

finally, to address your last point, i think you like the other guy are getting carried away with the whole objective thing. i never said its objective, in fact i said its not objective. nor did i say acceleration makes it a better car. i really dont see why my post brought out such a defensive position, or you feel the need to misrepresent what i said to make a point about objectivity. i think i even finished off by saying that i lke bmw, i have an m3...etc, so there is no mercedes fan boy stuff going on here. no one is disrespecting or belittling your opinion. on the contrary, i welcome yours as another fan of bmw's. but you havent seen the c63, and if like me youre not interesting in internet bickering but just in hearing some opinions, than you should look at this car, again, in my opinion.

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by ajmbmwweb

if like me youre not interesting in internet bickering but just in hearing some opinions, than you should look at this car, again, in my opinion.

Like I said, I would love to see a C63. If you don't know where I can find one near where I live then you need not offer this opinion any more.

There is a sound clip of the C63 as an intro on the AMG web site. If that wasn't done as professionally as any other sound recording then you can blame AMG, not YouTube.

OK, there is no difference between an exhaust and a fine instrument, designed to hang beneath a vehicle moving at 100-200 mph and be worked on, replaced or repaired by the same mechanic that changes the oil who may or may not be deaf.

Fine, the seats in the C63 are so much better than those in the E63 (also an AMG product, BTW, and not an "e class" just like the C63 is not a "c class") and the M3.

This started as a discussion about the difference between objective and subjective and seems to have deteriorated into a discussion about the relative "value" of subjective opinions formed by anything other than direct experience. If direct experience is so important than I really have to wonder why MB/AMG didn't even have this car at the AutoShow (with the M3, IS-F and CTS-V) let alone widely available at dealerships? If my subjective opinion is wrong (entirely possible) it's not for lack of trying.