C63 ring time.

[1BMW4fun]

Not sure if this is a repost but Motorauthority manage to get some numbers for the C63 BLK ring time and the regular C63 coupe. So the black series managed to get 7:46 and the regular coupe managed 8:01? That puts both the GTS and the ZCP behind? I have a hard time swallowing it since the reviews indicated the M is more nimble.


http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...he-ring-in-746

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun

Not sure if this is a repost but Motorauthority manage to get some numbers for the C63 BLK ring time and the regular C63 coupe. So the black series managed to get 7:46 and the regular coupe managed 8:01? That puts both the GTS and the ZCP behind? I have a hard time swallowing it since the reviews indicated the M is more nimble.


http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...he-ring-in-746

I haven't seen a time for the ZCP car, only the baset 6MT back in 08 with a 8:05. Keep in mind that the Nurburgring is also a track that likes horsepower.

Dave

[JonnyM3]

Disappointing time for BS. The new Camaro will post a better time for around half the price or less. The GTS was also disappointing to me, but thats not the discussion at hand. BMW better step up their game with the next gen M3.

[mdosu]

8:01 impressive for C63 coupe, i presume non P31?

[MEHP]

Take a look at the thread about M3 GTS vs. C63 Black. There I posted some times that were driven on the Ring by sport auto. I'll upload a list of all times done by sport auto as well.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by AudiS5

Disappointing time for BS. The new Camaro will post a better time for around half the price or less. The GTS was also disappointing to me, but thats not the discussion at hand. BMW better step up their game with the next gen M3.

Will it? The C63 Black Series 'ring time was posted by an indepedent Sport Auto review and I believe the Camaro time was based on a Chevy run.
If that's how you're comparing its really an apples and oranges comparison.
7:46 by Sport Auto is really quick considering they were getting 7:34 from a GTR, 7:38 from an LFA, 458, 997 Turbo, and a Z06. I doubt they would get a Camaro moving any quicker than the C63 BS.

[Shuke]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I haven't seen a time for the ZCP car, only the baset 6MT back in 08 with a 8:05. Keep in mind that the Nurburgring is also a track that likes horsepower.

Dave

I think there's a reason we have not seen ZCP times (read: it wasnt a big improvement on the non ZCP time).
The Ring does tend to favor high HP cars more, but a car that can handle the terrain of the Ring (through excellent susp. geometry) can compensate for having less hp (i.e. 991 S time of 7:40 that rivals or beats cars with 150-200 hp more).

Originally Posted by Nine

I would say 99% of the ring references are apples and oranges. When lexus or chevy go out and put down these amazing numbers, it is very different from when a third party tries to achieve the same.

I doubt the 7:14 time in the LFA will ever be replecated by a non-Lexus venture. Same with any of the other glory laps by the ZR1, Z06, GT-R, GT2Camaro, etc.

A lot of them are glory laps, but as testing confirms (Sport Auto), Porsche's times are always within the differences one would typically see hour to hour or day to day on different laps.
The ridiculous times of the GTR are beyond outliers compared to Sport Auto's tests.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

its really an apples and oranges comparison.

I would say 99% of the ring references are apples and oranges. When lexus or chevy go out and put down these amazing numbers, it is very different from when a third party tries to achieve the same.

I doubt the 7:14 time in the LFA will ever be replecated by a non-Lexus venture. Same with any of the other glory laps by the ZR1, Z06, GT-R, GT2Camaro, etc.

[newowner35i]

i believe the zcp m3 did it in 8:00 idk if it was 6mt or dct. the gts does it in 7:48 with pzeros i believe and someone told me customer cars received the michelin semi slicks with should mean the gts does it in about 7:42-7:46 my estimates from my experiences

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Shuke

A lot of them are glory laps, but as testing confirms (Sport Auto), Porsche's times are always within the differences one would typically see hour to hour or day to day on different laps.
The ridiculous times of the GTR are beyond outliers compared to Sport Auto's tests.

Can you expand a bit on these two major points that you have made:
1. Porsche's times are always within....
2. GTR times are beyond outliers compared to Sport Auto's tests...

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Nine

I would say 99% of the ring references are apples and oranges. When lexus or chevy go out and put down these amazing numbers, it is very different from when a third party tries to achieve the same.

The ring times posted in the article which covers the E92 M3, GTS, C63 coupe and C63 BS are all by the same car magazine and driver. They are comparable to that extent possible with the only real variable being conditions that given track day.

Also, there is conflicting reports as to whether the M3 had sport cup or PS2 tires. Some have said sport cup and some claim PS2... don't know which is right but if it were sport cup tires, that would make a notable difference.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by newowner35i

i believe the zcp m3 did it in 8:00 idk if it was 6mt or dct. the gts does it in 7:48 with pzeros i believe and someone told me customer cars received the michelin semi slicks with should mean the gts does it in about 7:42-7:46 my estimates from my experiences

Do you have a reference? I haven't seen this posted anywhere. The 8:05 is the best time I've seen verified. I think a ZCP with DCT could absolutely hit 8:00.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by gthal

The ring times posted in the article which covers the E92 M3, GTS, C63 coupe and C63 BS are all by the same car magazine and driver. They are comparable to that extent possible with the only real variable being conditions that given track day.

Keeping the driver the same and the magazine the same does not create an even playing field, it might actually create more error.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Nine

Keeping the driver the same and the magazine the same does not create an even playing field, it might actually create more error.

Why? Same driver and same independent testing entity. The only real variable is the weather and test conditions (which could be significant). The real issue is comparing results from different drivers and results from manufacturers vs. independents.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by gthal

Why? Same driver and same independent testing entity. The only real variable is the weather and test conditions (which could be significant). The real issue is comparing results from different drivers and results from manufacturers vs. independents.

Yikes, I didn't want to get into some long drawn out discussion about testing error. But to keep things simple, race car drivers have cars they are faster in, humans in general have many biases and to say that one driver can drive all cars equally fast...it's just not correct. Scientifically, there should be more drivers, more laps recorded and an average maybe even the median provided.

Unless each car has it's best driver, on it's best day, it's not a fair comparison.

According the article, the BS c63AMG, is just as fast a Lambo Superlegerra, just based on lap times, I think this is classic case of a flawed comparison and 'apples and oranges' lap times.

Superlegerra 562hp, 3400lbs, 0-60 3.4
C63bs 510hp, 3770lbs 0-60 4.2

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Nine

Yikes, I didn't want to get into some long drawn out discussion about testing error. But to keep things simple, race car drivers have cars they are faster in, humans in general have many biases and to say that one driver can drive all cars equally fast...it's just not correct. Scientifically, there should be more drivers, more laps recorded and an average maybe even the median provided.

Unless each car has it's best driver, on it's best day, it's not a fair comparison.

According the article, the BS c63AMG, is just as fast a Lambo Superlegerra, just based on lap times, I think this is classic case of a flawed comparison and 'apples and oranges' lap times.

Superlegerra 562hp, 3400lbs, 0-60 3.4
C63bs 510hp, 3770lbs 0-60 4.2

I get what you are saying. All I'm trying to point out is that is a "better" comparison when the same driver is in both cars being compared because it reduces the variable of driver skill level. If a different driver for each car is used, then you can't factor out their difference in skill level. Therefore, the same driver in both cars (especially a driver that drives MANY cars) is better, IMO, when trying to make a comparison. Ideally, you would do as you say but that isn't particularly practical because no one would dedicate the time and resources to do it. Therefore, the best middle ground might be same driver testing both cars when comparing the relative differences in the cars. It may not give the perfect result but better than two different drivers. You and I, for example, would get very different ring times in an M3. One of us driving two different M3s would likely be close in time for each car because we eliminated the difference in our driving skill.

Anyway, as I said, all I'm saying is that it reduces one of the variables... driver skill... maybe doesn't eliminate it as you point out but better than two completely different drivers. If we could find the fastest driver for each type of car and allow them to run each of the cars back to back and average out a few runs (to eliminate the track condition and weather variables) that might be better but we likely won't see that.