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03-13-2010, 01:03 PM | #24 | |
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I'm an Independent, I have a dyno and an M3. I am not in bed with any BMW vendors. Though I do own a shop, and have sold/installed their products. I have done numerous before and after tests for Japanese vehicles. I can offer a true and unbiased results as I possible can time and weather permitting. I was planning on preforming true back to back testing when car arrives next week. I would love to help. To me the ECU is the biggest Mystery to me as information is so heavily guarded.
I have done testing on an E60 M5 when they came out with different mods and flashes. Needless to say I have never been that confused. If I had access to the ECU or better data-logging equipment that would have helped tremendously. I am open to options. Quote:
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03-13-2010, 01:12 PM | #25 | |
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In a good way. |
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03-13-2010, 02:52 PM | #26 |
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03-13-2010, 03:09 PM | #27 | |
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Last year we imported an AA exhaust and the customer wanted an AA tune also. We did some extensive testing back then on how the car would react to the tune. The gain from the tune was real and it was made straight away. The graph shape was completely different so we knew it wasn't just a phase shift of the graph. After returning the car back to the stock setting the power went back down and the graph shape changed back also. No matter how many times we dyno'ed the car the results were consistent. That's how quick this ECU is. Resetting the adaptive memory has very little effect after a tune has been applied. There is certainly not 15hp worth of power available from just resetting adaptation! Unfortunately Bavtech doesn't have this feature so the general public cannot test it as the basic version of this tool is owned by many people. Once this command is added people can test it for themselves. If a sudden increase in power is being on a dyno then there are only two explanations: 1) A tune has given a genuine HP increase 2) Someone messed around with the correction factors or how the car is strapped on the dyno |
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03-13-2010, 03:33 PM | #29 | |
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03-13-2010, 03:38 PM | #30 |
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Why?
It's no different than you going to over 90% of the tuners out there who don't physically change the software themselves and write in the very same changes that everyone else gets. There's nothing wrong with this if their tune/remap is well designed and is proven to work. What makes one car so different from another that it needs some 'special' setting unless it has modifications carried out to it that the tuner has never dealt with before. Onyly then does a tune become custom and pretty much immediately ceases to be custom because the tuner has developed a out of the box solution for that setup. All the E9x M3's have the same software (assuming all cars have BMW updates done), they all perform pretty much the same and we are talking about a very well engineered engine here which is made to very tight tolerances. If it was so important to custom tune every car than BMW would do it from the factory. I hope that makes sense to you. Last edited by Sales@Evolve; 03-13-2010 at 03:44 PM.. |
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03-13-2010, 03:50 PM | #31 | |
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I hope that makes sense to you too |
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03-13-2010, 03:57 PM | #32 | |
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03-13-2010, 04:09 PM | #33 | |
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Why? Because we've never ever come accross an E92 M3 with cams. I think we are talking the same language. You only need a custom tune when your setup is 'new' to your tuner. Also, what additions to your vehicle setup warrant a change in the standard tune? Adding a K&N filter doesn't require a different tune. The ECU is more than capable of adjusting the fuelling for this small change. There is a long list of additions which don't actually require any change in the ECU programme to cater for that change. The engine management systems are incredibly sophisticated in these cars. You can sit there all day trying to adjust the tune specifically for alot of the bolt on parts. It won't make a difference in the power output of the engine. I think too many people are still stuck in the old ages and think these cars don't have any sensors and run on carbs! |
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03-13-2010, 04:13 PM | #34 | |
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I know where your coming from and I understand your concerns but it is important that you understand also where I am coming from by telling you how sophisticated your car is. Limits and target values |
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03-13-2010, 04:23 PM | #35 | |
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That was the point to this thread. It sparked my interest when I saw a recent dyno on a plenum upgrade. The A/F went richer in the upper RPM band in comparison to the stock plenum. It made me think that the ECU is more sensitive to intake mods i.e more than a filter. Was the ECU referencing a different cell group that the stock vehicle will never see. Or if the ECU is target based was it too far from the target to compensate properly/accurately. Beats me... I don't know how this ECU works. Thats why I'm asking. |
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03-13-2010, 04:28 PM | #36 |
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The operating system that runs the MSS60 is very sophisticated. It cannot be thought of like the older systems that would benefit from custom tuning. On older systems you could assign values like timing for specific RPM’s based on fuel quality and other factors. On these older systems you can benefit from custom tuning if the tuner knows what he is doing. On newer systems these rules have all changed
On this car the operating system is a self correcting, adaptation based platform. How it works is you pre-select a target for things like AFR and ignition timing targets. The ECU will always execute that target when it can. If the target cannot be reached due to fuel quality, AIT’s or any other reason it will self correct to run as close to target as it can while keeping the motor safe. Each cylinder in the S65 is monitored independently for optimal timing. When corrections need to be made due to variances such as cylinder pressure the ECU will custom tune the spark for that cylinder. This system allows the car to always perform at an optimum level regardless of the situation or condition of the motor. Because of this there is no way to custom tune it. You can cheat by setting targets much higher than the ECU can correct but this is never a good idea as you are simply forcing the ECU to run settings it knows is unsafe. The only changes you can make to the system outside of what it self corrects are things like vanos calibration, larger fuel injectors calibration cylinder displacement calculations, torque limits, rev limit, top speed governor etc.. these are all things that can be modified to improve performance but none of these would need to be custom tuned for a stock motor or a car running simple bolt on mods. The only time you would need to custom tune the MSS60 is if you had major modification such as modified displacement, aftermarket cams, forced induction or a full catless exhaust that had some sort of problem making power at certain RPM’s requiring different cam settings to work optimally. |
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03-13-2010, 04:39 PM | #37 | |
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Good observations you made there about AFR. Get a stock M3 and dyno it 4 times. The AFR will most likely jump up and down in different places anyway. Plenum would need to be way different to stock for the ECU to really go out of range. I doubt any plenum that will physically fit under the bonnet can make much of a difference. Larger displacement is when it all starts getting very interesting! Infact, changing an M3 to run purely on LPG is when it starts getting even more juicy! Now that requires a custom tune which is so different it's unreal! Target Lambda values for part and full loads, ignition targets, fuel density and stoichometric values + loads of other values + fuel factoring for each cylinder + fuel injection factors......ete etc etc..... |
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03-13-2010, 04:45 PM | #38 | |
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This is as simple as an explanation can get. It's probably far easier to understand than anything I would have put up! |
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03-13-2010, 06:54 PM | #40 | |
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03-13-2010, 08:46 PM | #41 | |
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If the "Fuel and ignition" tables don't require tuning on a stock engine with bolt on parts due to that adaptive nature of the ECU, you should be able to extract the most performance by using the lowest octane fuel to keep the engine constantly in the optimum range weather it is 91, 93, 94, 100 ron. Given the information most of the performance would be gained in vanos tuning. How many degrees of adjustment do the cams have? In my experience VTC NA engines the optimum cam angle change with different bolt on configurations (More than mufflers and Air Filters). This along with the other parameters would be the only items for custom tuning. |
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03-14-2010, 06:28 AM | #42 | |||
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A question can arise from the above – ‘why are some cars making different power on different dyno’s. We answer this by explaning that different dyno operators may use different ways to dyno cars and comparing different dyno’s is a futile exercise in most cases. Then we show them the maps from different cars and it clearly shows that the values in the maps are identical. Then we ask the question – why did BMW not custom tune each vehicle? It’s not just luck that every M3 makes the same power curve and value from the same engine and same map. Normally, that’s enough for them to understand. The ones that get pulled into the marketing talk of custom tuning will go elsewhere and one day will realize they’ve been bent over. Quote:
You can sit there all day trying to adjust the tune specifically for alot of the bolt on parts. It won't make a difference in the power output of the engine. Most of good ones will flow just aswell as each other. Even if there is a difference in power output it will be very small. The EGT’s, AFR’s and power curve are all similar so what is that we can change? The timing? The Limiters? Won’t make a difference. The similar EGT’s, AFR’s and power curves/graphs are enough evidence thatno changes are required on top of the tune that was already developed for one of those exhausts. They are just pipes with slightly difference cat configurations and it just doesn’t make much of a difference when you try and tune each one individually. By comparing them (the good ones) we really are splitting hairs! It’s not so different to testing one free flow filter to another. The basic restriction in the system is the primary cats. Yes, the post O2 sensors do need to be dealt with but that’s the case with most of the systems and therefore it’s the same change required one or more tables to overcome the issue. I can only speak for the brands we have tested which are all excellent. Quote:
If the injectors are being changed also then there are even more maps to change. The first step is to identify which maps need changing. Then they have to be scaled correctly so you know what the actual values are. You’d be surprised at how many tuners who cannot scale the values within a map so it’s not just a number! Identifying the maps is the single most difficult task. Then, once you’ve made your project file you need a strategy to map. Some strategies are better than others. This is where the software programming expertise is no longer that important but the tuners skill to make the correct changes to the values within the maps based on feedback they get from their data logging devices (both live and recorded). Generally the mapping will be split into 3 segments – Idle, Part Load and Full Load. Idle can be tricky. Full Load is usually a very quick process because the maps for full load are not very big and you can use a dyno to do 95% of the work. When I say quick I mean relatively quick to part load! It still takes a quite some time. Part load is the hardest one of all because this has the largest number of load sites. In other word it takes a lot of time and as many load sites as possible (ideally all) need to be tested to make sure timing and fuel requirements are met to a very high level of precision. In theory what people think is ‘basically’ correct. Values in the map tables need to be changed. There are quite a few though (therefore lots of variables!) and the hardest part is knowing where those maps are, what the values should be scaled to and then what to changes need to be made to those values based on the testing and datalogging they do. Do not think it’s just some percentage change you can apply across the board. If only it were that easy! If anyone thinks it’s easy I am sure one of the tuners out there will happily provide a full project file to work from, train the individuals how to use the software and then send them on their merry way to go and make the engine run as it should. Infact, Evolve are just in the process of doing our final tests on an E92 M3’s running on pure LPG. This car when it turned up would hardly start up, would not idle and would basically do nothing. Much worse than a stroker situation. We were dealing with a fuel which has a completely different density (98% Propane), has a different burn, different pressure (which in this setup is constant rather than variable) and has the potential to ruin an engine if the fuel and timing requirements are not met within a very small range. Coupled with an ECU which is this sophisticated the task was not particularly easy. If anyone here thinks it’s just a bunch of tables with some basic changes made then come over and try and make one of these cars run like a normal road car (like we have mapped it to do). When your dealing with strokers, superchargers, fuel changes and anything that drastically changes the way the engine will operate, a tuner is required which has more than just the understanding of how to extract some power out of an engine. This is real custom tuning and it’s applied because it’s really needed! What Roman and I are trying to say is that the ECU’s can adapt to a certain limit. Most bolt on parts do not make enough difference that there is so much change required which the ECU cannot make small changes for by adaptation. Custom tuning is only required when something is done to the engine which changes things so drastically that it’s outside of the scope of the adaptation because the base maps are nowhere near where they need to be. Some tuners may have more than one type or level of tune. Different tuners may have different methods of extracting power. Some methods are better than others. Once those tunes are developed and that’s all the tuner knows, there is not much else they can do over and above those tunes to cater for bolt on upgrades which the ECU can already handle in it’s normal operation. |
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03-14-2010, 06:50 AM | #43 | |
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Quick discussion on the dyno graph: 14.1 AFR is not a very good target to have under full at high rpm. That's too lean. It's fine for partial load driving or in other words when you foot is not on the floor and the engine is not under full load. All dyno tests are carried out under full load (foot on floor). The ECU target AFR for full load is between 12.5 and 13 AFR at high rpms. The AFR's in the graph seem pretty much in that region. Remember, that the target can be changed by the ECU based on other sensor inputs. If for example the air intake temperature starts rising it will take the target AFR and add fuel to that to compensate for the higher temperatures. Without knowing the variables such as intake temperature of those particular dyno runs, we cannot establish why the AFR went slightly richer at high rpms. Typically the AFR does move up and down between dyno runs on a standard car. Just a quick side step and observation on that dyno graph: That curve is really not a very good representation of how an M3 makes it's accross the RPM range. These engines do not make pretty much constant power from 7250rpm - 8400rpm. Below is a representation of what an M3 does in tuned standard form with a comparison of an intake.....look at what happens on the standard graph at high rpm.... power does not remain constant but rises! |
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