Lightning Lap: M3 runs faster than Cayman S and 911 Carrera S

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Fact is, on 99.9% of tracks, the 997S IS faster, no question about it (...) the driver is just as important as the car.

Actually the fact is that on 99% of the tracks the M3 will be faster, because the cars will be driven by guys like you or me, or Car & Driver. That test day at VIR is an absolute perfect example of this.

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by adc

Actually the fact is that on 99% of the tracks the M3 will be faster, because the cars will be driven by guys like you or me, or Car & Driver. That test day at VIR is an absolute perfect example of this.

Better yet of all M3's owned on this forum 99% of the time the car will be driven on public roads. While it's interesting to discuss performance data on particular tracks, making a crusade out of it is pointless considering how little time the car will see a track if at all.

[adc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

If youre talking about the average joe who is a novice..yes I can agree with that...and going by that the cayman S is easier to drive than both the 911 and m3 so it will likely be faster 99.9% of the time than either.

It is beliefs like these which make me go back to tracking with one of the local Porsche clubs. I absolutely adore the "after" conversations...

[adc]

Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG

Better yet of all M3's owned on this forum 99% of the time the car will be driven on public roads. While it's interesting to discuss performance data on particular tracks, making a crusade out of it is pointless considering how little time the car will see a track if at all.

So where else would you compare the cars?

Well, the M3 makes a far better daily driver than either Porsche and lo and behold, can keep its own on track too. What crusade?

While BMW owners posting on a BMW board can be pardoned for being overly enthusiastic about their cars, you would have to ask youself if it is them being the most argumentative in these threads. Go ahead, count the number of posts by member then check out what they drive...

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by ruff

What is this fear of a counter viewpoint to your own? Is the First Amendment not to your liking? Should it be mandated that any member making positive comments toward an automobile not sporting a roundel be banned?

The problem is some people are such Ideologues that when they feel threaten they begin to spew the last resort tactics aka "Why are you posting on this forum?". Frankly their are many non-current MB owners who post on Mbworld.org and never does anyone harass them to leave the forum. Again in Footie's (former E92 M3 owner) case he offers respectable/constructive debate to the threads that are active. I feel majority of the M3 owners realize that and welcome it as well. The people who strongly oppose him so much, well they have their own issues. Most of the true car enthusiasts have owned at one point opposing brands, some even in the current time frame. Again the cars are all equally priced for the most part so your relatively dealing with the same group of enthusiast for the most part.

[MikeG_C63_AMG]

Originally Posted by adc

So where else would you compare the cars?

Well, the M3 makes a far better daily driver than either Porsche and lo and behold, can keep its own on track too. What crusade?

While BMW owners posting on a BMW board can be pardoned for being overly enthusiastic about their cars, you would have to ask youself if it is them being the most argumentative in these threads. Go ahead, count the number of posts by member then check out what they drive...

I agree with you ADC for the most part. I'm just saying when the discussion becomes so heated over a few tenths of a second about how each car placed at a particular track it tends to get out of hand. I mean look at it this way. If you are an avid enthusiast who goes to the track often what does it matter what Car and Driver or any other car mag put down? In reality YOUR skill is the only thing that will matter correct? At any particular track day would an experience M3 driver care what a novice arrogant GT-R driver is saying? Definitely Not.

[adc]

Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG

I agree with you ADC for the most part. I'm just saying when the discussion becomes so heated over a few tenths of a second about how each car placed at a particular track it tends to get out of hand. I mean look at it this way. If you are an avid enthusiast who goes to the track often what does it matter what Car and Driver or any other car mag put down? In reality YOUR skill is the only thing that will matter correct? At any particular track day would an experience M3 driver care what a novice arrogant GT-R driver is saying? Definitely Not.

Oh I know this very well. The driver makes such a big difference that the cars don't even have to be in the same performance category. For instance...

This past summer after taking delivery of my car in Munich and completing the break in, I went for a few laps on the Nurburgring. I am not a novice in general but over there, I most definitely am. I was running at a pretty decent clip and was playing cat and mouse with a little Opel Corsa. For those who don't know what that is, it's a sub-Golf sized compact hatch.

So here I am in a 414BHP RWD machine, Bavaria's finest, having to let a 150BHP FWD hatch pass me in the more technical sections.

At some point I decided to no longer pass him in the fast sections (or the ones where I knew the track layout reasonably well) and just follow him around, and so I was able to learn a lot. No ego was hurt in the process.


So I find it amusing when certain Porsche enthusiasts think that a 1 second advantage when driven at 10/10ths actually makes any difference whatsoever with regular drivers on regular tracks - when what matters most at the end of the day is that you go back home in the same car you came in.

Same thing in street driving, I'm more hemmed in by the desire to not frighten other drivers than by the limits of my car...

As far as owning other brands, I think if AMG offered a manual transmission option - even at extra cost - I'd probably be driving a C63 now...

[ruff]

Originally Posted by adc

So I find it amusing when certain Porsche enthusiasts think that a 1 second advantage when driven at 10/10ths actually makes any difference whatsoever with regular drivers on regular tracks - when what matters most at the end of the day is that you go back home in the same car you came in.

Of course, not applicable to BMW enthusiasts.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ruff

Of course, not applicable to certain BMW enthusiasts.

Of course it's applicable - or did you miss the fist part of my post - it's just that I don't go to the MB, Audi, Porsche, Mazda, Nissan or whatever boards trying to convince them how much better my M3 is.

[ruff]

There are plenty of M3 fanboys already doing it for you.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ruff

There are plenty of M3 fanboys already doing it for you.

I see, so posts on this thread are in retaliation from the Honda and Porsche boards?

[SUB-ZERO]

Just let the numbers speak for themselves and the true victor will rise.

Like another poster said, "If my aunt had a pair of balls, she could be my uncle".

If the Cayman had more power..blah, blah

If the M3 was lighter..blah, blah

If the 911S was cheaper, blah, blah

The fact is, that regardless of who has more power, is lighter or has a mid/front engine configuration, the M3 was able to edge out the other two Porsches (who were being driven by the same drivers).

The argument that the M3 and the Cayman were driven more efficiently than the 911S because the 911S is so magical that only a few could actually drive it, is purely baseless, completely ridiculous and purely based on an assumption that makes no real sense.

I love P-Cars and would take a GT3, 911TT or GT2 any day of the week. However, in this case, the M3 outperformed the Cayman S and 911S.

Additionally, the bottom of the barrel P-Car is a Boxster and not a Cayman S. Not sure why some are saying the the Cayman S is Porsches entry level car when it actually is 3 levels up fom the entry level car (i.e., Boxster, Boxster S, Cayman, Cayman S).

-SZ

[ruff]

Originally Posted by adc

I see, so posts on this thread are in retaliation from the Honda and Porsche boards?

Actually, I have been your M3 promoter on a Porsche forum.

Yes, I own a Honda Accord. I understand that isn't fashionable with the highfalutin crowd.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ruff

Yes, I own a Honda Accord. I understand that isn't fashionable with the highfalutin crowd.

As you can see, they've delegated me to answer your posts, since I own a relatively stripped E90 M3...

[ruff]

Originally Posted by adc

As you can see, they've delegated me to answer your posts, since I own a relatively stripped E90 M3...

I appreciate your efforts. A bare bones e90 6mt, minus bug infested, weight debilitating, expensive and overly complicated hocus pocus options is a good candidate for the best all around sports car in the world.

I am starting to sound too much like C&D. Worse yet, you may welcome me into your highfalutin club.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ruff

A bare bones e90 6mt, minus bug infested, weight debilitating, expensive and overly complicated hocus pocus options is a good candidate for the best all around sports car in the world.

That was my thinking, last year... thought I'd give it a shot.

I am starting to sound too much like C&D. Worse yet, you may welcome me into your highfalutin club now.

There goes the neighborhood... oh wait, that's what they said when I joined...

[TLud]

Originally Posted by ruff

Actually, I have been your M3 promoter on a Porsche forum.

Yes, I own a Honda Accord. I understand that isn't fashionable with the highfalutin crowd.

It's funny how when online posters find themselves losing a debate, they resort to challenging your knowledge or argument based on the car you currently own (or claim to). I know you've gotten that a few times here on m3post.

For the record, you can most likely outdrive me in your CS, but I also own a Honda Civic and it will blow the doors off your Accord at VIR.

[photogS]

If I may add my $.02

Corvette surprised me a lot. I've never been a fan and wouldn't own one, but it's a very capable machine. In recent Excellence magazine ZR1 was put against GT2 (both cars driven by Johannes Van Overbeek, who is not new to Porsche)
ZR1 edged out GT2. GT2 was faster in technical part of the course, while the Vette made up for it in the 2nd (faster) part.

About the whole M3 vs 911S vs CS.
Surprisingly M3 was slightly faster. It says a lot. However, I agree that obviously the drivers couldn't drive the Carrera S properly - it should easily beat both M3 and the CS.

Nevertheless, it's only one lap (or the best lap).
One lap/best lap is pointless IMO. It's all about bragging rights. In reality IMO M3 should and probably would be smoked by both CS and 911S, and here is why:
-after a few laps M3 brakes would start fading
-M3 tires would start overheating due to the porkiness of the car

M3 in the stock form is good for a few laps and then you need to cool off, while Porsche is still going strong.

When we talk slightly modded, adding more power to Cayman is easier then removing extra weight in the M3 so again, the Cayman should be a much better track weapon.

Still, it's amazing that M3 could be even compared to these outstanding machines. I'm impressed

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ruff

The Corvette Grand Sport unequivocally separates this bad boy from the wanna bees and their fancy haughty European counterparts at a performance to dollar ratio.

I am looking into C6 vettes now that I no longer have a back seat requirement. I test drove a 09 base model and the thing is a beast. Raw and exciting. And the lighter weight is refreshing. I wouldn't go with the stock suspension though. I was surprised at the dive/roll. The front end is not as connected as the M3, but that's no surprise. I think the way to go is to try to pick up a base equipment version with Z51 suspension, which also upgrades coolers and brakes (and changes the gear ratios). They don't offer that in the 2010 lineup as a package though, and hence the Grand Sport I guess. Definitely lots of bang for the buck. I like the way it looks, too. A bit concerned about the roof. The M3 might be safer in a roll-over in stock form, but I'd have to investigate...

[ruff]

Originally Posted by TLud

It's funny how when online posters find themselves losing a debate, they resort to challenging your knowledge or argument based on the car you currently own (or claim to). I know you've gotten that a few times here on m3post.

For the record, you can most likely outdrive me in your CS, but I also own a Honda Civic and it will blow the doors off your Accord at VIR.

The Accord, like a loyal dog, is a wallet's best friend. Almost 235,000 miles of appreciation for Honda quality.

You may have the most beautiful sports car in the world. Tasteful mods all around. I almost bought a M3 to sport those RACs.

Drove through the northern section of Texas Hill Country last summer after flying to Austin to pick up the CS. Beautiful area and stupendous BBQ.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by ruff

What is this fear of a counter viewpoint to your own? Is the First Amendment not to your liking? Should it be mandated that any member making positive comments toward an automobile not sporting a roundel be banned?

Hey ruff, when you stop twisting my point, and actually recognize my point for what it is, we can talk. Till then, not getting dragged into that endless and pointless debate with you.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by ruff

Yes, I own a Honda Accord. I understand that isn't fashionable with the highfalutin crowd.

Funny coming from you, because i find your tone and wording in 90% of your posts to expose as one of the most condescending and pompous members on these boards.

Cheers,
e46e92