Jalopnik: "The Death Of BMW’s M Brand"

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

A simpler F20 "Baby Bimmer" in Sedan, Coupe and Convertible form could restore some life to the enthusiast wing of the BMW brand, especially if it forms the basis of another relatively affordable M variant.

Such a car is likely to arrive at some point, but not before the next generation 1 Series. As such, it will be based on the FWD UKL platform that BMW intends to introduce shortly in the form of a 1 GT and other similar vehicles, and which will, in some form or another, eventually underpin all vehicles in the 1 series range.

However there is also hope for a 2 Series Gran Coupe - possibly even this generation, based off the upcoming F22 2 Series coupe.

[understeer]

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new."

Steve Jobs

[Pauldramos]

I have one thing to say about all of this http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705185

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

Regardless of where you stand on the question about what M means these days, BMW does deserve credit for continuing to offer manual transmissions on most cars where they have any chance of selling (i.e. automatic-only SUVs are more understandable). That's one reason the AMG cars have very little appeal for me. Of course the manuals may be gone soon as well, but I think we still have 5-10 years of "row your own" BMWs ahead of us.

Big deal!
Should Honda,Mazda,Nissan,Ford,GM etc. also get credit for continuing to offer MT's on their cars?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by davesaddiction

Bill,

I feel your pain. I felt the same way when it came out that Porsche was going to build the Cayenne. I've come to accept that, though, because of the crazy "pure" models they're able to make because of all the money they're making off the Cayenne (and Panamera).

I just bought an '08 E90 M3. It came off lease, used by someone who obviously just bought it for status. As a dad with two little kids, having a car with this kind of power and handling, a manual transmission, and room in the back for car seats (so it can be my daily drive) is a dream come true.

Spent half a tank of gas taking a fun drive on rural roads around here this past Friday, and I can't wait to put her through her paces on weekend trips to Arkansas and eventually track days at the little track near here. www.hallettracing.net

Sign up for No Excuses 5! Sept 7-9 at Hallet

INFO http://www.noexcusesdrivingschool.com/

REGISTRATION http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...4D78429C5C5C8D

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Big deal!
Should Honda,Mazda,Nissan,Ford,GM etc. also get credit for continuing to offer MT's on their cars?

To some extent, I'd say yes, but I think you may be missing the context of my point.

Many companies who offer high-end performance cars/lines are weaving in so much technology into their cars they have eliminated or nearly eliminated manual transmissions. Ferrari and Lambo set the trend in motion years ago.

But consider BMW's direct competition: Audi is clearly on the path to eliminating manual transmissions even on their S and RS cars. Mercedes offers a single manual model in America, but you'll never see one (SLK250). For me, it's a disturbing trend and I'm glad to see that BMW hasn't gone there...yet.

Among less expensive cars, I'm happy to see manuals are still around, but I think that speaks to the economics and demographics where those cars compete. The list of sports cars (or even sporty cars) with RWD and a manual transmission is getting shorter every year, so we should celebrate the survivors!

[JRV]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

you registered to post this gem?

i read that and thought it was well though out and written....yea what a first post!

[nemex12]

Originally Posted by checkmate

I wish. This article captures what many enthusiasts have felt about the M division for a while.

Post E9x M3...I won't be buying a M product. (Not that M needs my money to survive anyways).

Here's to a future where all ///M engines will be nothing more than a fast and glorified vacuum cleaner.

x2, people in the forum should stop blindly backing BMW up and start speaking up the truth so the brand can find its soul again, that same soul that gave it the respect it has among enthusiasts. BMW is looking everyday a little more like Mercedes and less like BMW and we as fans should speak up and make em notice what they are doing.

[brisance]

Those of you who agree with the author: how many of you have a daily-driven car like an Lotus Exige? How long did you own it for? Unless you live in Japan where the roads are smoother than a pool table, I'd guess "not that long".

Note that even Lotus has gone "soft" with the Evora.

How many of you "true enthusiasts" are ready to pay 120K Euros for an M3? Because that's what the M3 GT4 costs. So why are you bitching about it here and not out there racing?

It's like the age-old Mac vs PC thing. Apple doesn't know how to make a sub-$1000 laptop that doesn't suck (in their view). You are free to disagree, just like you can most definitely make a go-kart beat the pants off any supercar. But I wouldn't like a go-kart as a daily driver.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

To some extent, I'd say yes, but I think you may be missing the context of my point.

Many companies who offer high-end performance cars/lines are weaving in so much technology into their cars they have eliminated or nearly eliminated manual transmissions. Ferrari and Lambo set the trend in motion years ago.

But consider BMW's direct competition: Audi is clearly on the path to eliminating manual transmissions even on their S and RS cars. Mercedes offers a single manual model in America, but you'll never see one (SLK250). For me, it's a disturbing trend and I'm glad to see that BMW hasn't gone there...yet.

Among less expensive cars, I'm happy to see manuals are still around, but I think that speaks to the economics and demographics where those cars compete. The list of sports cars (or even sporty cars) with RWD and a manual transmission is getting shorter every year, so we should celebrate the survivors!

It doesnt get anymore mainstrean than a Honda Accord,yet you think BMW should be celebrated for offering a MT on a sports car, the Mustang Boss 302 only comes with a MT and the Z06 jst started offering an auto.

What's sad if that bright orange was offered on the Mustang GT500, many people here would have would thought it looks hideous. Since it's BMW offering it,it's the coolest color ever and worth 5 to 10 grand.

[Minator]

When are those pussies at M going to put their foot down and just say NO! give me a break...whats next Special Ed brake calipers? hey wait a minute..if there better brakes I might go for that! maybe some marketing person wil come up with an M donut holder that has an M button to shove the donut in your face faster...Lets all pray they don't ruin the brand with the F80...why don't hey just give is the us the damm stroker motor ed. and go out with giving the marketing guys the finger?

[CSL_E36]

Great discussion.
A point that has been brought up many times about the GTS being the last pure M, the fact is, that's what it costs to satisfy the purist M buyer. I'm all for a special edition with increased displacement and reduced weight. I just wish they offered the GTS as a package, not a limited edition. There is a reason why the Dinan stroker kit costs so much. It's the cost of labor and parts to overbore the S65.

The director of M has come out and said he has a "surprise" with the next M3. "the enthusiast won't be disappointed". I'm hope BMW will deliver.

My main concern with this "next" gen of turbo M cars is the track capability. Every other 335 is playing the limp mode game at the track and I have heard of new M5s going into limp before a 20 min session. Those things have 10 coolers don't they!?!?

Anyway, glad I got me S65!

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by 96LTWM3

Great discussion.
A point that has been brought up many times about the GTS being the last pure M, the fact is, that's what it costs to satisfy the purist M buyer. I'm all for a special edition with increased displacement and reduced weight. I just wish they offered the GTS as a package, not a limited edition. There is a reason why the Dinan stroker kit costs so much. It's the cost of labor and parts to overbore the S65.

The director of M has come out and said he has a "surprise" with the next M3. "the enthusiast won't be disappointed". I'm sure BMW will deliver.

My main concern with this "next" gen of turbo M cars is the track capability. Every other 335 is playing the limp mode game at the track and I have heard of new M5s going into limp before a 20 min session. Those things have 10 coolers don't they!?!?

Anyway, glad I got me S65!

No issues with cooling or limp mode on the 1M. as in ZERO reports. Search on 1addicts if you care.

[CSL_E36]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

No issues with cooling or limp mode on the 1M. as in ZERO reports. Search on 1addicts if you care.

Well good for you!
I owned a N54 335i for 2 years and did 3 track days in it so I'm speaking from my personal experience. I'm sure the 1M has better cooling.

Are you stock or running booooooooost?

[anodyne88]

Originally Posted by Reznick

Thats exactly what I'd love to see too , but by that rationale, both your 1M and my M3 aren't true M cars even though e9x M3 trounces the cars that came before it ( performance wise). No matter how much we'd like to think everyone driving and M series car around knows everything about it , the simple fact is there will always be posers.But BMW IS caught in a conundrum how to keep EVERYONE happy.They are a victim of their own success. To much leather, sound deadening and gadgets and the purists aren't happy. Take that stuff away and BMW's average buyer isn't happy.
My point about Porsche was somewhat sarcastic seeing as VW just made the final buy out to completely own them.

I'm confused about all of this poser talk. I am a business man, 40, just learning about cars, have started auto crossing, plan to go to the track. I bought the m3 cause I can track it and go to bed bath and beyond after that. Am I a poser? Everyone is a poser in some way. The use of the term is just dumb.

Also, I rode in a boss 302, Shelby, blah blah, and the interiors of those cars suck, and are impossible to see out of, and would look silly at a work event. The m3 gives me a reasonable car I can use for work and to learn more about cars and driving.

[anodyne88]

Originally Posted by mhabs

One could just as easily say that the poseurs are the "track types" whose minority opinion is more valid than hundreds of thousands of M car buyers, or posing as superior judges of what's good for a company and its stockholders (oh and btw, BMW is a public company with traded equity for one of the prior posters who claimed it was private).

Stick to your tracking/racing/performance purity expertise and vote with your wallet if you disagree so vehemently and leave the psychology/consumer behavior/management consulting/cost accounting/profitability analysis (and even spelling --it's posEUR, btw) to others. Time will tell if BMW is in fact becoming the next Toyota.

Amen!

[car_fan]

Originally Posted by debdoub

Completely agree, cheers to you too BMW mate

By the way that e39 was bought @ Sonnen BMW Mill Valley

[ATSR]

I agree about 99% with the article, and I've been ranting about the exact same thing for a while now. The 1% that I don't agree with is that I don't believe that BMW M is dead (yet). Even when/if it dies, the M brand will still be showing up all over BMW's products, but it will not have the same meaning it used to have.

Below you will see something I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding the new M6 that falls directly in line with what is being discussed in this thread:

"I have no doubt that it would be fun to drive in the same way that any +500hp car would be, but my main problem with this car is that it keeps moving farther away from what an M car should be (or used to be).

The reason why I fell in love with BMW M cars was due to the level of performance, daily driver usability, and more importantly, a level of driver involvement usually reserved for much more expensive pure sports cars.

Unfortunately this latest generation of M cars (new M5, M6, X5M, X6M) seem to have forgotten that key characteristic and therefore are moving away from what made them so brilliant for so many years.

It seems that the marketing department is having too much influence in the decisions being made at BMW M.

I really hope that the upcoming M3 breaks drastically away from this trend, but something tells me that it won't."

[TMR013]

Wow! Sorry, this guy just sounds bitter that the world doesn't work exactly like he thinks it should. That article sounded like a spoiled child having a tantrum.
Simple facts, no mass producing car company in existence, super car makers don't count, is in business just to please the enthusiast. We are a niche, in most cases an afterthought. But not with BMW. I think they put more thought for the enthusiast in their product than anybody else out there. And if they want to make less expensive cars more sporty by incorporating M components, more power to them. We should be happy that they are trying all they can to encourage more enthusiasts. Not whine like a bunch of stuck up M crybabies.

[aus]

Originally Posted by brisance

Those of you who agree with the author: how many of you have a daily-driven car like an Lotus Exige? How long did you own it for? Unless you live in Japan where the roads are smoother than a pool table, I'd guess "not that long".

Note that even Lotus has gone "soft" with the Evora.

How many of you "true enthusiasts" are ready to pay 120K Euros for an M3? Because that's what the M3 GT4 costs. So why are you bitching about it here and not out there racing?

It's like the age-old Mac vs PC thing. Apple doesn't know how to make a sub-$1000 laptop that doesn't suck (in their view). You are free to disagree, just like you can most definitely make a go-kart beat the pants off any supercar. But I wouldn't like a go-kart as a daily driver.

The GT4 is not a street car, so why are you comparing it to a street car? If you meant GTS, you can't just convert the Euros to dollars. If BMW would have made more copies of the car, they would have cost a lot less since the cost of engineering it would be spread out.
You can daily drive an E30 M3, E36 M3 (though we didn't get the real version), and an E46 M3. All versions had track oriented editions with TRUE performance improvements. The Lime Rock Edition does not. That's what the author was not happy about. Why couldn't BMW just give us at LEAST the brakes from the GTS? Why not the coilovers? Keep the stock engine to save money. At least that would be a true performance improvement.

Originally Posted by TMR013

Wow! Sorry, this guy just sounds bitter that the world doesn't work exactly like he thinks it should. That article sounded like a spoiled child having a tantrum.
Simple facts, no mass producing car company in existence, super car makers don't count, is in business just to please the enthusiast. We are a niche, in most cases an afterthought. But not with BMW. I think they put more thought for the enthusiast in their product than anybody else out there. And if they want to make less expensive cars more sporty by incorporating M components, more power to them. We should be happy that they are trying all they can to encourage more enthusiasts. Not whine like a bunch of stuck up M crybabies.

Spoken by someone who has NO IDEA what //M used to stand for.

.

[M3Denver]

Originally Posted by DARK_M3

Bingo!! Nope!

It's all about ///Money! That's why Porsche has an SUV and 4 door saloon now. You think a business that has the potential to make money gives a crap about every enthusiast nearly dropping over dead at the announcement of an SUV in development? Not a chance.

Porsche has kept its core cars though and has made them amazing... and after all the changes, they are still badass.

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by aus

Spoken by someone who has NO IDEA what //M used to stand for.

And I could just as easily say, spoken like one of those M crybabies I was talking about. But not going to get into it with you.
If you can only accept your narrow view, enjoy it.

Peace.