Running E85 mixture safe/not safe?

[CarbonFoot]

Running E85 on the M has interested me for long time, but until recently, I haven't heard of anybody running it. Lots of FI guys run it with great results and the cost per gallon is lower than regular unleaded, let alone racing fuel.

To my knowledge, no tuners have attempted to produce a calibration for it and I could never really determine if it was even safe to run through the stock fueling system - until I stumbled across this snippet in the manual.

So surely running a tankful of E85 is not recommended, but what gives those of you running low percentage mixtures peace of mind?

[135Pats]

i dont know the proper mixture for the m3s na engine, but regardless watch out as it cools outside, it can get tough to start in any car that isnt specifically tuned for it. Some of the more adventurous n54 guys have run really aggressive mixes.

[MStar]

Not safe, why not run vegetable oil for that matter

[Shaun@AW]

LOL E85 is a higher octane then pump and has a cooling effect on the motor like methanol E85 is the best thing to happen for people that want power

Not safe, why not run vegetable oil for that matter

[alpine335i]

Message Brendan from BrenTuning, he runs E85 in his M with great rests.

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Yolkster

You guys do know that ethanol and methanol are hygroscopic and corrosive especially to plastics and polymers. You can run water/meth through the intake but again thats not without risks..

If you want to run higher octane buy race fuel.

If you are not tuned for it than none of this matters.

Dude where u get all ur info? E85 IS like cheap race gas and is not corrosive to modern fuel systems of the past 10 yrs or so


To the op. if you really want to take advantage and run only e85 you'll need injectors and a fuel pump as more fuel is required w/ e85. Many people have had great results w/ NA setups.

[m3an]

Here's some more reading for you:::



1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.

11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.

[m3an]

Yes the info was taken from the site as it answers all questions about e85 in one place. The problem is people like you go post absolute answers to topics you clearly know nothing about other than Internet reading.

Fact is e85 is not detrimental to modern day fuel systems. I come from driving evos tuned on e85 and know many gtrs running it as well. It works plain and simple. Yes it has its drawbacks (cheaper cost cancels out that it burns at a faster rate) but it is still a great option to make horsepower.

[m3an]

Originally Posted by Yolkster

Excuse me..you are the one pulling information off a leftist corn lobby web-site, buying into the e85 hype..so seems you are the one doing the reading on the internet...contradict much?>.

Ethanol is hygroscopic..that is not going to change..what can be changed is how auto makers build their cars..and our cars are NOT built to run this fuel.

I read the manual and my knowlege of car engines is my guide..Good luck making mollasess...or whatever it is you do in your car.

Again the info was pulled from that site as its the most concise reading for e85. I have used it first hand, have you? Again if you knew anything you'd know that modern fuel systems will not be damages by e85. Again this is only 85% ethanol and reg fuel nowadays is already 15%. I guess we agree to disagree but you seem so adamant about something that you don't know much about. BTW there's also people on this forum running e85 in m3 (as well as many other cars not orig designed for it w/ no adverse issues )

[ArthurJGuy]

I have tuned many many cars on e85, so let me add a few things.

E85 IS hygroscopic, but it will not damage anything in your fuel system meerly by making contact with it. However, E85 without tuning for it will be bad news if you beat on the car. This is because E85 has a different stoichometric ratio than gasoline. You need more fuel to keep the air to fuel ratio happy because E85 has less energy, this is also why your fuel economy is reduced with corn.

Being hygroscopic means that the older the fuel is, more of it is water and less of it is fuel by volume. The reason that people don't give E85 an official octane rating is that it's octane rating depends on its age, as well as the seasons. Now, water is also a knock supressant and will allow the fuel to behave like a high octane fuel (not what it should be without water) but water will do nothing for the air fuel ratio which can cause the car to run lean. Also bad news.

Out here in Vegas, fresh E85 from the pump might be E85 but it might also be E70. Let it sit a week in your tank and E70 is now E60. This changes the octane which changes the amount of timing that you can run safely, and this is why I advise against E85.

With the M and the WB02 and auto tuning functions, as long as you can change the target AFR's you can run the E85, but you won't notice any benefit without extra timing, and short of relying on the knock sensors and timing retard, it's a never ending tune.

[m3an]

Good info and also why I would def do injectors and a pump for safety on this car.

[m3an]

Interesting to note too that there are also gauges now that will tell you the ethanol content right from the pump. Worth mentioning like you said about siting that I wouldn't recommend it for the guys who don't drive the cars a lot and let them sit. I like it more for a daily driven car looking to make horsepower on pump gas(if its readily avail by you and is of decent ethanol content)

[ArthurJGuy]

Originally Posted by m3an

Interesting to note too that there are also gauges now that will tell you the ethanol content right from the pump. Worth mentioning like you said about siting that I wouldn't recommend it for the guys who don't drive the cars a lot and let them sit. I like it more for a daily driven car looking to make horsepower on pump gas(if its readily avail by you and is of decent ethanol content)

I have never seen a gauge, but I have seen many test kits for under $20. Once you know what you are working with you can adjust your timing (or boost) as needed. This is defiantly not a fill up and forget it fuel though, if you are willing to baby sit it on a regular basis there are many benefits to it, but the people that will watch it and have the software/knowledge to adjust the cars performance accordingly are few and far between.

[ArthurJGuy]

Also, I should add you won't see detonation on the plugs of an E85 car. I did have a friend that bought it in a 55gal drum like an idiot and by halfway through the drum he was injecting mostly water into his car (03 Cobra, big snail, big boost) and it was trying to hydrolock on every compression stroke and it would walk the crank and crap out a thrust bearing costing a motor, he ended up eating up 4 or 5 motors before we found that is what it was.

[ArthurJGuy]

It will be higher octane than pump fuel, how much varies. I've seen it behave like 100 octane and I've also seen it perform much much better. It is very unstable. If it were regulated like pump gas was to require X minimum octane, it might be different.

E85 vs 91 octane, E85 will cost you more at the pump. E85 vs 100 octane, E85 will be cheaper at the pump but more attention required.

IMO fuel is just like any thing else in the auto industry. You can pay a little more and not have to worry about it, or you can pay a lot less but involve a majority of your time.

[Shaun@AW]

I've E85 for over 1yr straight in my Evo making over 750hp so I do know what im talking about and never had a problem Yolkster have you have ran E85?
If not then I guess your just going by what you've read and not experienced

Here a video

or and heres are M5 and ran E85 check out the number pretty sure fastest and quickest

[irish100p]

Ive run E85 on my supra, my GTR, and have been trying to get another full flexfuel setup for the M3 because E85 is cheap, makes great power, and burns cleaner too. Do you have to be a stickler with your maintenance as far as oil changes and not letting your car sit with e85 in the tank? yes, but they're nothing that cant be dealt with. Will it require a diff. fuel pump, yes, but not because of the super corrosive e85, more because of the fact that the car will need a larger volume of fuel once its on e85. If you do an e85 setup and you don't use a stand alone system with a flex fuel sensor, take my advice and buy the zietronix sensor with display, you will see that a lot of pump stations have more than 10% ethanol already in their 93 octane, but as others have stated your ethanol content in e85 can be all over the place.

[faith&firepower]

My turbo'd RX8 has been running E85 for a while now. That power is amazing, but I still have some minor tweeks to straighten out on the dyno. LONG LIVE THE ROTARY!!

[CarbonFoot]

Sorry - I went MIA after posting this. Thanks for all the replies as lots of good information was shared.

I'm not sure I buy into the notion that a higher flowing fuel pump along with larger injectors are truly required. I understand the need for larger injectors, but it seems as though the fuel pump has enough headroom to cope with the additional flow. I loosely base this on the fact that many of the forced induction systems out there use upgraded injectors while utilizing the stock pump with great success.

So regardless of the fueling system capabilities and despite the obvious performance benefits of E85, I still haven't heard anything that would convince me to run it in my car just yet.

[m3an]

Originally Posted by CarbonFoot

Sorry - I went MIA after posting this. Thanks for all the replies as lots of good information was shared.

I'm not sure I buy into the notion that a higher flowing fuel pump along with larger injectors are truly required. I understand the need for larger injectors, but it seems as though the fuel pump has enough headroom to cope with the additional flow. I loosely base this on the fact that many of the forced induction systems out there use upgraded injectors while utilizing the stock pump with great success.

So regardless of the fueling system capabilities and despite the obvious performance benefits of E85, I still haven't heard anything that would convince me to run it in my car just yet.

it is cheaper than gas, yet it burns at a much faster rate. Maybe the fuel pump is not 100% necessary but its very cheap insurance. I would rather underwork a larger pump that over work a smaller one.. Make sense?? If you don't get all the idiosyncracies of it, then no offense but e85 is prob not for you.

Remember w/ a bigger fuel pump, you are keeping the same fuel pressure (w/ a regulator) but you won't have a strain on the system. A fuel pump is cheap, why not put it in? You can't compare fueling requirements from a SC car to one setup for e85 as its totally diff.

[CarbonFoot]

Thanks - and I do get it. If I were to run it, I wouldn't skimp out on any of the necessary components. There's just not enough information about what exactly is needed and how it is calculated. I'd love to see the math that is used to determine injector sizes and fuel pressure requirements to run E85 successfully on a stock motor - let alone putting this on top of an SC'd one.

[M3PO]

Some of the supercharged guys are running 180+% of stock power with the stock pump. It's safe to assume that they need at least 80% more fuel to do that. Running E85 on an NA car is going to require much less than that (~25% more) so the stock fuel pump will not be overworked.