Need help with Colorado's Nuisance and Abatement act/bill...

[Skooterbrah]

Long story short, got popped allegedly "drag racing" a lightning few weeks back. Arrested on spot (they have zero radar etc. on me, just officers "sighting/word") Spend the night in jail and car is impounded.

Was on phone with lawyer today, and 2 weeks after the fact i'm still fighting to get my car back.... Sure i'll man up and pay the fine and take the hit on my points if i'm found guilty, but the way Denver is going about seizing my car.... How in the mother fuck is this constitutional/legal for them to do...

Info on the N&A law.
http://outreach.colostate.edu/bighor...ure%20(PP).pdf

And 5th amendment -

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


How can they even do this... I have yet to go to trial.... and Denver "Upon seizure (probable cause), all rights,title, and interest in seized property shall immediately vest in the state" pretty much owns my car and i have to pay a metric ton of $$ for a lawyer to get MY car back, and then another ton of $$ to have it released from impound. I was even told that if im cleared of charges, and found not guilty, that the state can still remain in custody of my vehicle for up to and including 6 months and I will STILL have to pay to have it released...


Any lawyers out there that can add a little insight to this? The gentleman i'm using isn't the greatest with communication, hence why I am venting/asking for info here.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by Skooterbrah

Long story short, got popped allegedly "drag racing" a lightning few weeks back. Arrested on spot (they have zero radar etc. on me, just officers "sighting/word") Spend the night in jail and car is impounded.

Was on phone with lawyer today, and 2 weeks after the fact i'm still fighting to get my car back.... Sure i'll man up and pay the fine and take the hit on my points if i'm found guilty, but the way Denver is going about seizing my car.... How in the mother fuck is this constitutional/legal for them to do...

Info on the N&A law.
http://outreach.colostate.edu/bighor...ure%20(PP).pdf

And 5th amendment -

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


How can they even do this... I have yet to go to trial.... and Denver "Upon seizure (probable cause), all rights,title, and interest in seized property shall immediately vest in the state" pretty much owns my car and i have to pay a metric ton of $$ for a lawyer to get MY car back, and then another ton of $$ to have it released from impound. I was even told that if im cleared of charges, and found not guilty, that the state can still remain in custody of my vehicle for up to and including 6 months and I will STILL have to pay to have it released...


Any lawyers out there that can add a little insight to this? The gentleman i'm using isn't the greatest with communication, hence why I am venting/asking for info here.

Back in my college days, I got in some similar trouble. My car was released to me the same day.

My advice - get a better lawyer. Not sure why you are using a lawyer who has trouble with communication.

[Skooterbrah]

Originally Posted by robotk

Back in my college days, I got in some similar trouble. My car was released to me the same day.

My advice - get a better lawyer. Not sure why you are using a lawyer who has trouble with communication.

its a 30 day minimum hold here with the N&A law. I have never needed a lawyer outside of small business legalities etc... So the whole "criminal" side of this is completely new to me.

[esquire]

Took a quick look at the link you sent. Here is my legal assessment. (Disclaimer: This is an opinion. I'm not acting as your attorney. You need to retain your own counsel to double check my very preliminary assessment here).

1) Unless you were drag racing for MONEY (and therefore gambling), or unless Drag Racing in and of itself is a Felony where you live, you don't appear to fall within any of the categories. With regards to money, if they found more than 1000 dollars on you at the time of the incident, then there is rebuttable presumption that the money was connected to your improper use of the property (gambling). You would rebut this presumption through some sort of testimony under penalty of perjury that you had obtained this money for other reasons (i.e. withdrew money from the bank that day, just got paid, was on your way to make a substantial purchase somewhere, or event that you just had the money on you but did not obtain it through drag racing).

2) your 5th amendment constitutional argument probably won't take you too far. it appears this statute has been on the books for quite some time (since 1992) and has probably withstood numerous constitutional challenges to this effect. have your lawyer do more research on the topic.

3) Burden of proof is on the state to prove that your property was used unlawfully (i.e it fell into a class 1 nuisance category.)

4) Based on the link you provided its ambiguous whether or not the state gets to KEEP your property even if you are not convicted. I can't imagine this would be the case, because that would amount to a "TAKING" - (read, eminent domain)... and that would require compensation by the state.

Your lawyer needs to pull the ACTUAL statute (not this legislative history document). Read up on the statute. Read cases which interpret the statute, and find cases which deal with drag racing in particular. then try to compare your case to those cases.

If i were you, I'd get a lawyer who SPECIALIZES in this. Maybe do some research on cases and find WHICH lawyers represented the Defendant in THOSE cases, and retain THAT lawyer.

hope that helps.
- esquire

[Tomislav]

We've got all these hoon laws here also, they can take it, and crush it if they want.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by Skooterbrah

its a 30 day minimum hold here with the N&A law. I have never needed a lawyer outside of small business legalities etc... So the whole "criminal" side of this is completely new to me.

I know - these things vary widely state to state. You are really at the mercy of your lawyer's competence. You will get nowhere trying to figure this out on your own.

[mdosu]

you were released on bail? or you were released b/c they're not charging you? B/c if this isn't the end of your criminal case, then they can impound your car until the legal process is over. Your car is evidence in the case against you. For instance, what if they give your car back, and then you drive it down to Mexico? The judge is going to ask where the evidence is, and the prosecutor would look like a fukin' idiot for not having the evidence to present.

Hate to say this, but worst case situation is that you can loose your car if you immediately plead guilty during your arrest. Have you pled guilty? I wouldn't at this point enter any plea and get a better lawyer.

A friend of mine went though a case recently (not car related), and he said the worst thing he did was plead guilty immediately upon his arrest, b/c he was essentially pleading guilty to the worst of the charges. If you remain silent and then lawyer up, the lawyer may be able to get the prosecutor to charge you with a lesser crime....well that's at least what good lawyers can do.

Good luck man, but you have to focus on getting off on a lesser charge at this point, before focusing on getting your car back. I mean, you're already coming off as saying, "yeah, I did it, but they have no proof"...so I'm not even sure why you're even writing this on a public forum when there's a pending case against you. Your lawyer should have told you upon hiring him that no matter what, you only speak to him about the case, and you need to maintain a low profile until your case is over.


just my 2 cents, I'm not a lawyer...but I know enough in any situation to keep my mouth shut and not to plead guilty until you've discussed all your options with your lawyer. Every crime is different, and every state/county laws are different. I would be more concerned about losing your car permanently, then temporarily getting it back until your legal case is settled. At this point, it looks like to me, the state has the right to impound the car until your legal case is settled, and IMO this makes a lot of legal sense.

[05Mdriver]

Sorry to hear and good luck.. Looks like your going to be driving a Skooter brah

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by 05Mdriver

Sorry to hear and good luck.. Looks like your going to be driving a Skooter brah

oh that's cold...

[05Mdriver]

Originally Posted by mdosu

oh that's cold...

just trying to lighten things up !

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by 05Mdriver

just trying to lighten things up !

I hope OP realizes he is in some serious shit if there's still a pending legal case against him. Whether he gets his car back after he pleads guilty will be dependent on the level of the charge/crime. He's at the mercy of whatever it says on the books regarding evidence seziure.

that's why I said, he should just shut up, go talk to a lawyer and try to get off on a lesser charge, then he may be able to get his car back.

Here in VA, this could be a felony, which likely means if you pled guilty, the state owns your car indefinitely.

[Titanium Silver]

Damn dude, that's crazy. I hope you get your car back soon. Colorado is turning into a police state. You get caught for a traffic offense and then they seize your property?

Please let us know how it goes and good luck!

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Titanium Silver

Damn dude, that's crazy. I hope you get your car back soon. Colorado is turning into a police state. You get caught for a traffic offense and then they seize your property?

Please let us know how it goes and good luck!

you're entitled to your opinion, but this isn't exactly running a stop sign here...street racing or excessive speed laws are a lot more harsh than minor traffic offenses for good reason.

so all this makes sense to me...here in VA, you get mandatory jail time if you're caught and booked at over 100 mph. But seriously, that makes sense, why the hell would you drive over 100 mph on a public road? what if you hit a family's van? Not exactly an unintentional "running a stop sign", is it?

So the state or county will determine if these cases are certain level felonies...and then the law will dictate what happens to the evidence siezed that was an accessory to the crime.

Seriously guys, dont' street race..it just doesn't prove anything and the downsides are huge if you're caught.

[Skooterbrah]

Originally Posted by esquire

Took a quick look at the link you sent. Here is my legal assessment. (Disclaimer: This is an opinion. I'm not acting as your attorney. You need to retain your own counsel to double check my very preliminary assessment here).

1) Unless you were drag racing for MONEY (and therefore gambling), or unless Drag Racing in and of itself is a Felony where you live, you don't appear to fall within any of the categories. With regards to money, if they found more than 1000 dollars on you at the time of the incident, then there is rebuttable presumption that the money was connected to your improper use of the property (gambling). You would rebut this presumption through some sort of testimony under penalty of perjury that you had obtained this money for other reasons (i.e. withdrew money from the bank that day, just got paid, was on your way to make a substantial purchase somewhere, or event that you just had the money on you but did not obtain it through drag racing).

2) your 5th amendment constitutional argument probably won't take you too far. it appears this statute has been on the books for quite some time (since 1992) and has probably withstood numerous constitutional challenges to this effect. have your lawyer do more research on the topic.

3) Burden of proof is on the state to prove that your property was used unlawfully (i.e it fell into a class 1 nuisance category.)

4) Based on the link you provided its ambiguous whether or not the state gets to KEEP your property even if you are not convicted. I can't imagine this would be the case, because that would amount to a "TAKING" - (read, eminent domain)... and that would require compensation by the state.

Your lawyer needs to pull the ACTUAL statute (not this legislative history document). Read up on the statute. Read cases which interpret the statute, and find cases which deal with drag racing in particular. then try to compare your case to those cases.

If i were you, I'd get a lawyer who SPECIALIZES in this. Maybe do some research on cases and find WHICH lawyers represented the Defendant in THOSE cases, and retain THAT lawyer.

hope that helps.
- esquire

Awesome, thanks for the information and insight!!!

Originally Posted by Sam@ModeCarbon

PM Sent

Gotcha Sam, Thanks!

Originally Posted by robotk

I know - these things vary widely state to state. You are really at the mercy of your lawyer's competence. You will get nowhere trying to figure this out on your own.

Yep, so true.

Originally Posted by mdosu

you were released on bail? or you were released b/c they're not charging you? B/c if this isn't the end of your criminal case, then they can impound your car until the legal process is over. Your car is evidence in the case against you. For instance, what if they give your car back, and then you drive it down to Mexico? The judge is going to ask where the evidence is, and the prosecutor would look like a fukin' idiot for not having the evidence to present.

Hate to say this, but worst case situation is that you can loose your car if you immediately plead guilty during your arrest. Have you pled guilty? I wouldn't at this point enter any plea and get a better lawyer.

A friend of mine went though a case recently (not car related), and he said the worst thing he did was plead guilty immediately upon his arrest, b/c he was essentially pleading guilty to the worst of the charges. If you remain silent and then lawyer up, the lawyer may be able to get the prosecutor to charge you with a lesser crime....well that's at least what good lawyers can do.

Good luck man, but you have to focus on getting off on a lesser charge at this point, before focusing on getting your car back. I mean, you're already coming off as saying, "yeah, I did it, but they have no proof"...so I'm not even sure why you're even writing this on a public forum when there's a pending case against you. Your lawyer should have told you upon hiring him that no matter what, you only speak to him about the case, and you need to maintain a low profile until your case is over.


just my 2 cents, I'm not a lawyer...but I know enough in any situation to keep my mouth shut and not to plead guilty until you've discussed all your options with your lawyer. Every crime is different, and every state/county laws are different. I would be more concerned about losing your car permanently, then temporarily getting it back until your legal case is settled. At this point, it looks like to me, the state has the right to impound the car until your legal case is settled, and IMO this makes a lot of legal sense.

Its not a matter of getting my car back when the "case is settled" Read the literature a little closer and you will see:

"Permits the forfeiture of any (or part of a) building, the ground upon which it is situated, all fixtures and contents, vehicles, currency, or any real property deemed to be a Class 1 public nuisance" Also directly from sourced legal literature "Forfeiture does not require criminal conviction Sandstrom v. District Court (884 P.2d 707 Colo.1996)"

Its a matter of just getting my car back. The state can permanently retain custody. As of right now, my car technically isn't mine anymore, even without trial, conviction or burden of proof... "Upon seizure (probable cause), all rights,title, and interest in seized property shall immediately vest in the state " At this point I don't care about the points or ticket. Ill take a 8 point hit on a clean license and a $400 fine... My biggest concern is keeping my car from getting crushed or auctioned by the state.

Originally Posted by 05Mdriver

Sorry to hear and good luck.. Looks like your going to be driving a Skooter brah

Too soon bro.....

Originally Posted by mdosu

I hope OP realizes he is in some serious shit if there's still a pending legal case against him. Whether he gets his car back after he pleads guilty will be dependent on the level of the charge/crime. He's at the mercy of whatever it says on the books regarding evidence seziure.

that's why I said, he should just shut up, go talk to a lawyer and try to get off on a lesser charge, then he may be able to get his car back.

Here in VA, this could be a felony, which likely means if you pled guilty, the state owns your car indefinitely.

I'm not in serious shit. This isn't felony speeding, this isn't any serious case. As stated above, my priorities lie with getting my car back. I haven't said anything that could do damage, nor did i ever say i did or didn't "race" I said "Allegedly"

Originally Posted by Titanium Silver

Damn dude, that's crazy. I hope you get your car back soon. Colorado is turning into a police state. You get caught for a traffic offense and then they seize your property?

Please let us know how it goes and good luck!

Tell me about it man..... Thanks!

[mdosu]

^ well, only you and your lawyer know where you stand regarding the severity... I'm just saying for certain levels of crime, if you get a conviction, you're not getting your evidence back...that's all I'm saying. So if you plan on pleading gulity, it's up to your lawyer to be able to water it down to the least severe charge in order to get your car back.

If you want to feel free to disclose what they've booked you on, then we can debate how serious it is (or a Class 1 public nusaince)...or we'll just take your assessement that it's not serious.

You're lucky that it appears there's no single "get tough" law on street racing or reckless driving in CO. You've probably seen places like Ontario, Canada and CA where they singled out these incidents with tougher laws to crack down on this behavior. Needless to say, I'm sure you've learned your lesson regardless of the outcome....

[Skooterbrah]

Originally Posted by mdosu

^ well, only you and your lawyer know where you stand regarding the severity... I'm just saying for certain levels of crime, if you get a conviction, you're not getting your evidence back...that's all I'm saying. If you want to feel free to disclose what they've booked you on, then we can debate how serious it is (or a Class 1 public nusaince)...or we'll just take your assessement that it's not serious.

You're lucky that it appears there's no single "get tough" law on street racing or reckless driving in CO. You've probably seen places like Ontario, Canada and CA where they singled out these incidents with tougher laws to crack down on this behavior. Needless to say, I'm sure you've learned your lesson regardless of the outcome....

I was cited for "drag racing" and "careless driving" Have yet to go to trial. That's in 2 weeks. I have zero qualms paying the fines and taking the hit in points if im found guilty, but the whole seizure of my car by the state without due process, trial or conviction is absolutely absurd. They (LEO's) don't have to "catch" you doing anything this "severe" to take custody of a vehicle. In Denver county, anything thats deemed a "public nuisance" can fall under the N&A act and can result in forfeiture of vehicle to the state... Something as simple as a "loud exhaust" can equal a lost vehicle. The real kickers is "Forfeiture does not require criminal conviction Sandstrom v. District Court (884 P.2d 707 Colo.1996)" Even if my lawyer gets me completely off the hook with the charges being presented the state STILL can keep custody of my vehicle, and if i am allowed to take custody back, I STILL have to pay all impound fee's/tow fee's and other fee's deemed by the state to get my car back...

If you have a few minutes, take a look at this article.... Tell me this isn't completely ass backwards and wrong..

http://www.menwithfoilhats.com/2010/...ous-ordinance/

[SUBFRAMERIPPER]

What really happened? Where at in Denver?

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by Skooterbrah

I was cited for "drag racing" and "careless driving" Have yet to go to trial. That's in 2 weeks. I have zero qualms paying the fines and taking the hit in points if im found guilty, but the whole seizure of my car by the state without due process, trial or conviction is absolutely absurd. They (LEO's) don't have to "catch" you doing anything this "severe" to take custody of a vehicle. In Denver county, anything thats deemed a "public nuisance" can fall under the N&A act and can result in forfeiture of vehicle to the state... Something as simple as a "loud exhaust" can equal a lost vehicle. The real kickers is "Forfeiture does not require criminal conviction Sandstrom v. District Court (884 P.2d 707 Colo.1996)" Even if my lawyer gets me completely off the hook with the charges being presented the state STILL can keep custody of my vehicle, and if i am allowed to take custody back, I STILL have to pay all impound fee's/tow fee's and other fee's deemed by the state to get my car back...

If you have a few minutes, take a look at this article.... Tell me this isn't completely ass backwards and wrong..

http://www.menwithfoilhats.com/2010/...ous-ordinance/

Yeah, I agreed, if you're not guility, then you shouldn't have to pay anything to get your property back. I think they have a lot of "catch-alls" in the law for what you're referring to, but yeah, if you're not guilty, def you should fight the fines. Generally, you wouldn't even need a lawyer, you can just appear on front of the office or judge and present your justification.

[esquire]

OP, I caution you not to make any statements or admissions on here, as they could be used against you. A savvy DA over there, recognizing your car might be modded, might come to these forums to find this very thread and admit your statements against you in court.

I would use this forum as a resource for information intake, but not for information output.

Again, i'm not acting as your attorney... so go find yourself a good one

[Skooterbrah]

Originally Posted by esquire

OP, I caution you not to make any statements or admissions on here, as they could be used against you. A savvy DA over there, recognizing your car might be modded, might come to these forums to find this very thread and admit your statements against you in court.

I would use this forum as a resource for information intake, but not for information output.

Again, i'm not acting as your attorney... so go find yourself a good one

Thanks, I am being very cautious with what i say/type. Everything has just been "alleged" up to this point. I will disclose more specifics after court is held.

[M3Denver]

So the real question is .... We're you actually street racing ?

[SAINT VAN ROCK]

Good one

Originally Posted by 05Mdriver

Sorry to hear and good luck.. Looks like your going to be driving a Skooter brah