EVO Issue 108 -- M3 vs RS4 Review scans

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Steved

I keep trying to correct this in magazines but they prefer to stick by manufacturer quoted weights, partly for legal reasons and partly because its difficult to estimate actual weight without actally weighing the car. EVO now has its own scales and tries to weigh cars that it track tests, and we will use them when the full test of the M3 is performed later in August.

Yeah, but the EVO team should already have weighed "their" RS4. My guess is somethink like 1750kg!? Why didn't they atleast tell the real number for the RS4?

Best regards, south

[Steved]

Originally Posted by southlight

Yeah, but the EVO team should already have weighed "their" RS4. My guess is somethink like 1750kg!? Why didn't they atleast tell the real number for the RS4?

Best regards, south

They have. I seem to remember it was 1735kg, but I would need to check. It always annoys me, but apart from one or two journalists I have never found many who agree how misleading it can be.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Steved

They have. I seem to remember it was 1735kg, but I would need to check. It always annoys me, but apart from one or two journalists I have never found many who agree how misleading it can be.

Thanks for that information!

Best regards, south

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Steved

I keep trying to correct this in magazines but they prefer to stick by manufacturer quoted weights, partly for legal reasons and partly because its difficult to estimate actual weight without actally weighing the car. EVO now has its own scales and tries to weigh cars that it track tests, and we will use them when the full test of the M3 is performed later in August.

Even using manufacturers specs this is still classic "apples vs. oranges"

-1650 kg for the Audi is UNLADEN
-1655 for M3 is EU curb weight which contains driver, some small misc. package weight and fuel as well.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Even using manufacturers specs this is still classic "apples vs. oranges"

-1650 kg for the Audi is UNLADEN
-1655 for M3 is EU curb weight which contains driver, some small misc. package weight and fuel as well.

The Audi weight also contains fuel! So we have to add the 75kg for driver and luggage. 1650+68kg+7kg=1725kg EU weight.
As Steve said EVO's RS4 weighs 1735kg. That's about as stated. Problem is that most people don't know the different weight standards...

Best regards, south

[rpa]

An earlier thread asked whether the M3 is 20k better than the 335i. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the RS4 is almost positively going to be $10k more (MSRP) than the M3. And if the M3 comes in at 55-57? It could be as much as a $15k difference between the base prices on the cars.

To be honest I could care less about what reviewers or Audi fans say. I'll gladly take the car who's worst case is being equal yet could cost as much as 20% less.

[BruceWain]

+1

[lucid]

Originally Posted by rpa

An earlier thread asked whether the M3 is 20k better than the 335i. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the RS4 is almost positively going to be $10k more (MSRP) than the M3. And if the M3 comes in at 55-57? It could be as much as a $15k difference between the base prices on the cars.

To be honest I could care less about what reviewers or Audi fans say. I'll gladly take the car who's worst case is being equal yet could cost as much as 20% less.

Well, RS4 MSRP is $66k. At least one US magazine estimates the M3 base at $63k. So, that wouldn't be a large difference. And considering the cars are priced really close in the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened in the US (although I certainly wouldn't want it to). Regardless, this is all speculation, and nobody knows a whole lot about US pricing yet.

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by consolidated

100,000 M cars distribution:

70,000 California
20,000 Florida
9,064 New York, Texas, Michigan
34 shared among the remaining 45 states

Exacery!

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon

thank you for the clarification

+1

[Keto]

Originally Posted by lucid

Well, RS4 MSRP is $66k. At least one US magazine estimates the M3 base at $63k. So, that wouldn't be a large difference. And considering the cars are priced really close in the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened in the US (although I certainly wouldn't want it to). Regardless, this is all speculation, and nobody knows a whole lot about US pricing yet.

Yep, who buys an RS4 without that $4k premium package? Dunno. Let's price it, as the manufacturers say, "well-equipped." That will have to wait for US pricing, or for a guess from UK pricing, etc.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Keto

Yep, who buys an RS4 without that $4k premium package? Dunno. Let's price it, as the manufacturers say, "well-equipped." That will have to wait for US pricing, or for a guess from UK pricing, etc.

You can be sure that the premium package kind of stuff will not be standard with the M3, so that doesn't really chance anything.

[mullrat]

This is all conjecture and speculation but...

Historically the price of the M3 has mirrored the price of the most expensive 5 series. In this case the e60 550i carries the base price of $58,500. The e39 540i msrp was around $49,000US and the e46M3's base was around $47,000US. I am expecting the e92 M3 to be around $55-59KUS for MSRP. Fully optioned should run you close to $65-70KUS. I have never seen an RS4 that is less than $70K ready to be sold. To me the M3 will be about $5K less than the RS4.

It is interesting to me that BMW usually makes competing cars that are about $5K MORE than its audi counterparts. That tells me that the M3 CSL (which is the RS4's true competitor) is coming. That car i think will be priced about $5KUS higher than the RS4. Lord help you all when that car comes out.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by mullrat

It is interesting to me that BMW usually makes competing cars that are about $5K MORE than its audi counterparts. That tells me that the M3 CSL (which is the RS4's true competitor) is coming. That car i think will be priced about $5KUS higher than the RS4. Lord help you all when that car comes out.

Nope. CSL will be much more than $71k, even $75k for that matter.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by mullrat

This is all conjecture and speculation but...

Historically the price of the M3 has mirrored the price of the most expensive 5 series. In this case the e60 550i carries the base price of $58,500. The e39 540i msrp was around $49,000US and the e46M3's base was around $47,000US. I am expecting the e92 M3 to be around $55-59KUS for MSRP. Fully optioned should run you close to $65-70KUS. I have never seen an RS4 that is less than $70K ready to be sold. To me the M3 will be about $5K less than the RS4.

It is interesting to me that BMW usually makes competing cars that are about $5K MORE than its audi counterparts. That tells me that the M3 CSL (which is the RS4's true competitor) is coming. That car i think will be priced about $5KUS higher than the RS4. Lord help you all when that car comes out.

Currently, in Germany the M3 is selling for more than the 550i: 66650 vs 65200, a 2.2% difference.

Currently the 550i is selling for $58500 in the US, BUT that's a 2007. Factor in a 3.5% annual increase for the 2008 model, which brings it up to $60548. Factor in the 2.2 difference based on the German price relation, and you end up with $61880 for the 2008 M3.

So, using your observations/reasoning, we arrive at a low 60s number, which is what the magazines are beginning to estimate as the M3 base MSRP.

Also, I don't think BMW will be going after the RS4 at all with the M3 CSL; they will be going after the 911 GT3, and there is no way, in my opinion, you will be getting the new CSL for $75k, which is what a loaded M3 will cost. The M3 competes with the RS4, and based on BMW rhetoric, also with the 911. So it is only natural that they will be targeting the GT3 with the CSL. Same approach: take the base car, add a little hp, remove the luxuries and cut weight significantly. Oh, and jack up the price 35%-45%!

[mullrat]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Nope. CSL will be much more than $71k, even $75k for that matter.

You really think they're gonna sell a CSL for more than $75K msrp? well I guess we'll see.

[mullrat]

Originally Posted by lucid

Currently, in Germany the M3 is selling for more than the 550i: 66650 vs 65200, a 2.2% difference.

Currently the 550i is selling for $58500 in the US, BUT that's a 2007. Factor in a 3.5% annual increase for the 2008 model, which brings it up to $60548. Factor in the 2.2 difference based on the German price relation, and you end up with $61880 for the 2008 M3.

So, using your observations/reasoning, we arrive at a low 60s number, which is what the magazines are beginning to estimate as the M3 base MSRP.

Also, I don't think BMW will be going after the RS4 at all with the M3 CSL; they will be going after the 911 GT3, and there is no way, in my opinion, you will be getting the new CSL for $75k, which is what a loaded M3 will cost. The M3 competes with the RS4, and based on BMW rhetoric, with the 911 as well. So it is only natural that they will be targeting the GT3 with the CSL.

BMW has been quoted that the e92 M3 is a competitor for the 911. Never has it tried to compare itself to audi from what I have read. if i am mistaken then my appologies. I just think that the RS4 is they're ultimate version of the a4 and the m3csl is the ultimate version of the 3 series.. Just an opinion

I'm not saying that the csl will cost 71-75k. just saying i think that the msrp will be that. but i'm just speculating. as you are. I do agree that they are going to be competing against high end porsches like the GT3.

using your logicabout inflation then the RS4's base price for 08 should also follow a 3.5% increase to about $69,000.

btw the $58,500 is the 2008 price. There has been no indication of a change from 2007 to 2008 at this point. Although 2009 might be different.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by mullrat

BMW has been quoted that the e92 M3 is a competitor for the 911. Never has it tried to compare itself to audi from what I have rad. if i am mistaken then my appologies.

I'm not saying that the csl will cost 71-75k. just saying i think that the msrp will be that. but i'm just speculating. as you are. I do agree that they are going to be competing against high end porsches like the GT3.

using your logicabout inflation then the RS4's base price for 08 should also follow a 3.5% increase to about $69,000.

btw the $58,500 is the 2008 price. There has been no indication of a change from 2007 to 2008 at this point. Although 2009 might be different.

Yep, we are both speculating here. That's what this forum's for sometimes.

To the best of my knowledge, BMW always increases pricing annually--especially when the Euro/Dollar situation is as bad as it is. However, I haven't been tracking BMW prices for very long, so what I am saying is based on recent trends.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by mullrat

Never has it tried to compare itself to audi from what I have read. if i am mistaken then my appologies.

In the selling guide published by BMW for its sales staff to learn about and most importantly how to sell the E92 M3 they compare the car directly to both the RS4 and the 911. It doesn't get much more direct than that. You can find scans of that guide here on the forum.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by mullrat

I just think that the RS4 is they're ultimate version of the a4 and the m3csl is the ultimate version of the 3 series.. Just an opinion

Not so much an opinion as that is the case. That is basically how Audi/BMW intended for it to work.

[The CSL]

If BMW want to chage near GT3 prices (in the UK) then they're going to have to really work hard on stripping it, because else it really won't feel different enough to the standard model.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by The CSL

If BMW want to chage near GT3 prices (in the UK) then they're going to have to really work hard on stripping it, because else it really won't feel different enough to the standard model.

I am speculating that the M3 CSL, if it were to be offered in 2009, would probably cost $85k-$90k in the US.