BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-02-2009, 02:37 AM   #45
schnell325
Bored at work....
schnell325's Avatar
Canada
888
Rep
5,379
Posts

Drives: 2016 F82 M4 GTS//2022 M235iGC
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Comox Valley

iTrader: (8)

Candy!
__________________
Grey Matter:2008 E92 M3:608/425. SG/PS SOLD!
Dark Matter:2015 F80 M3:495/505. SOLD!
Anti Matter :2016 F82 M4 GTS
What next?!? A 2022 M235i GC- I must be getting old
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 06:16 AM   #46
boostedtwin
Sheriff
boostedtwin's Avatar
109
Rep
1,481
Posts

Drives: spyder, Macan GTS, 4xe Rubicon
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Orlando

iTrader: (10)

Garage List
07 335i  [0.00]
07 335i  [0.00]
AA rocks
__________________
2023 Porsche Spyder, 2024 Porsche Macan GTS, 4Xe Rubicon & 2021 BMW X5 M Package
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 11:20 AM   #47
550Chris
New Member
4
Rep
19
Posts

Drives: 2007 Dinan 550i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
here is the dyno from my best run....and the second graph shows my best run from last week (pre-AA software upgrade)
This dyno graph show them run in 3rd gear. This would multiply torque since you are not running in top gear or closest to 1:1 ratio. All cars that I have seen run are in at least 5th gear for the most accurate reading.
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 11:31 AM   #48
SlammedR8
Major General
SlammedR8's Avatar
Canada
518
Rep
5,483
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5 40i/2020 R8 V10 Spyder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 550Chris View Post
This dyno graph show them run in 3rd gear. This would multiply torque since you are not running in top gear or closest to 1:1 ratio. All cars that I have seen run are in at least 5th gear for the most accurate reading.
I took this quote from PG's post in my previous thread.
To explain why we use 3rd gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
The gear ratios are used as a torque divisor. Even a 1:1 ratio has a divisor because it's still going through the final drive ratio. The 6.084 ratio in the dyno chart is 3rd gear * final drive ratio. Fourth gear has a lower mechanical efficiency and reads lower. Fifth has even lower mechanical efficiency, and can't be used anyways because you'll run into the speed limiter of the ECU.
__________________
Current:
2019 BMW X5 40i - Carbon Black/Tartufo Individual Leather
2020 Range Rover HSE - Black/Black
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Spyder 6MT - Ascari Blue/Black
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 12:22 PM   #49
dcstep
Major General
United_States
1290
Rep
7,389
Posts

Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [8.40]
Thanks PG. You're a gem.

Dave
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 12:39 PM   #50
SlammedR8
Major General
SlammedR8's Avatar
Canada
518
Rep
5,483
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5 40i/2020 R8 V10 Spyder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Let me see if I can destroy this myth without starting a flame war. This myth probably wouldn't even exist if more people understood how the power is transmitted from the motor to the wheels. I think this myth continues to propogate -- mostly -- because it sounds like it makes sense on the surface and most people don't understand how power is transmitted. So they blindly accept it, and the myth continues to propogate. So let's see if I can dispell it -- at least for the 20 people who may read this message.

Regardless of torque and RPM, that power exists and the flywheel and causes the primary shaft of the transmission to spin. The gear on the primary shaft has some number of teeth on it, and meshes with another gear on the secondary shaft that has a different number of teeth on it. This is how you get a gear ratio: 87 teeth on the primary divided by 55 teeth on the secondary equals a 1.58:1 gear ratio (87/55=1.58). Obviously a 1:1 gear ratio has the same exact number of teeth on the primary and secondary shafts.

The drive shaft is connected to the secondary shaft of the transmission. But before getting to the wheels, there is one more conversion to take place: the final drive ratio. The secondary shaft/drive shaft spins a primary gear in the final drive, which in turn causes a secondary gear to spin as well. Once again, divide the number of teeth on the primary shaft with the number of teeth on the secondary shaft, and you get the final drive ratio. In the case of the M3, there are 100 teeth on the primary, and 26 teeth on the secondary giving a 3.8562:1 final drive ratio (100/26=3.8462).

Since both of these gears reduce the motor RPM to wheel/hub RPM, they BOTH act as torque multiplier. It's important to understand that BOTH gears act as torque multipliers: the transmission gear ratio AND final drive ratio act as torque multipliers -- not just the transmission gear ratio. It's easy to calculate the combined torque multiplier, as it's simply the gear-ratio x final-drive-ratio. In this case, 1.58 x 3.8462 = 6.084.

To compensate for the torque multiplier, you simply divide the measured results by the torque multiplier to obtain the actual results. In the case of a 3rd gear run on the M3, divide the measured results by 6.084 to obtain the actual results. If you look at the dyno chart, you will see they did exactly that. You will see '6.084' in the bottom right corner of the dyno chart. That was the torque DIVISOR from the measured results. If it weren't there, you'd be seeing over 2400 horsepower from this motor.

The myth:
Regardless of which dyno you use, you are always getting a torque multiplier because whichever gear you choose is always being run through and multiplied by the final drive ratio. The myth states that you need to run as close to 1:1 as possible -- completely ignoring that a final drive ratio even exists. Well the bad news for people who don't think for themselves: a final drive ratio does exist, and always acts as a torque multiplier itself. Eliminating the torque multiplying effects is as simple as dividing the measured results by this value.

So at least for the 20 people reading this thread, I hope you'll now understand how this works...and why it doesn't matter.

Oh, and for those of you still tempted to say that you need to run in 5th gear (1:1), think again. Your speed limiter would kick in before your dyno run is over...and completely invalidate your results.

Thanks PG for your input!

However, for those like you and myself who have done the AA software. the speed limiter would not kick in because we dont have
__________________
Current:
2019 BMW X5 40i - Carbon Black/Tartufo Individual Leather
2020 Range Rover HSE - Black/Black
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Spyder 6MT - Ascari Blue/Black
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 12:44 PM   #51
MMMorish
Just call me J.J. McClure
MMMorish's Avatar
Canada
156
Rep
2,834
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 & C4 Corvette
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
Thanks PG for your input!

However, for those like you and myself who have done the AA software. the speed limiter would not kick in because we dont have
What good is it to remove the speed limiter if you'll never get up to those kind of speeds? At least here in Toronto! Bragging rights I guess
__________________
MODS: Meisterschaft GT Racing Exhaust / BMC Air Filter / UUC SSK & DSSR (Modded)/ RPI Scoops / Passport SRX Hardwired / Custom Wrap 3M Clearbra / 20% Tint / 50% Windshield Tint / Key Hole Delete / Matted Out Accessories / VRS Type II Diffuser / Smoked Reflectors / Euphoria 6K LED Interior Lights / Rear Fog Light Mod / 6000K HID's / 6500K LUX H8 Angel Eyes / RDash License Plate LED Kit / LED Xenon Reverse Lights
"M3 drivers have no friends"
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 12:45 PM   #52
SlammedR8
Major General
SlammedR8's Avatar
Canada
518
Rep
5,483
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5 40i/2020 R8 V10 Spyder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
What good is it to remove the speed limiter if you'll never get up to those kind of speeds? At least here in Toronto! Bragging rights I guess
You must have misread my post.

ON the streets...no good at all!
Not even on the track...Its just part of the Software upgrade from AA.
AND the only reason I brought it up is because PG said that in 5th gear we would run into the speed limiter on a dyno, which would NOT happen once you have the software upgrade because there is no speed limiter. (well there is, but its set to some ridiculous amount like 260mph)
__________________
Current:
2019 BMW X5 40i - Carbon Black/Tartufo Individual Leather
2020 Range Rover HSE - Black/Black
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Spyder 6MT - Ascari Blue/Black
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 01:03 PM   #53
M3 Montreal
Colonel
68
Rep
2,194
Posts

Drives: 2012 M3 SG ,DCT & 2011 S4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal , Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Oh, and for those of you still tempted to say that you need to run in 5th gear (1:1), think again. Your speed limiter would kick in before your dyno run is over...and completely invalidate your results.

Pencilegeek ... YOU are the MAN when it comes to knowing your stuff.

In Slammed's case... since he reporgrammed his CPU he could effectively use 5th but then would his results be good comparisons of before and after gains if he didnt use the exact same method (gear) as he did previously? Im guessing Slammed did it right in still using the same gear and not 5th . correct?
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 01:05 PM   #54
M3 Montreal
Colonel
68
Rep
2,194
Posts

Drives: 2012 M3 SG ,DCT & 2011 S4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal , Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
What good is it to remove the speed limiter if you'll never get up to those kind of speeds? At least here in Toronto! Bragging rights I guess
In case you ever want to be the next OJ simpson and REALLY outrun those cops with the overhead cameras taping you from helicopters ! lol
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 01:49 PM   #55
dcstep
Major General
United_States
1290
Rep
7,389
Posts

Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [8.40]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
What good is it to remove the speed limiter if you'll never get up to those kind of speeds? ...
Tracks, like Texas World and a few others. Also, some of us drive in the South West US where such speeds are quite doable. (I once got airborne jumping a cattle guard at 160+ mph in an M5, down near Fort Davis, Texas).

Dave
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 03:25 PM   #56
MMMorish
Just call me J.J. McClure
MMMorish's Avatar
Canada
156
Rep
2,834
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 & C4 Corvette
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
I once got airborne jumping a cattle guard at 160+ mph in an M5, down near Fort Davis, Texas

Dave
Yippy ki aye!!!
__________________
MODS: Meisterschaft GT Racing Exhaust / BMC Air Filter / UUC SSK & DSSR (Modded)/ RPI Scoops / Passport SRX Hardwired / Custom Wrap 3M Clearbra / 20% Tint / 50% Windshield Tint / Key Hole Delete / Matted Out Accessories / VRS Type II Diffuser / Smoked Reflectors / Euphoria 6K LED Interior Lights / Rear Fog Light Mod / 6000K HID's / 6500K LUX H8 Angel Eyes / RDash License Plate LED Kit / LED Xenon Reverse Lights
"M3 drivers have no friends"
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 03:35 PM   #57
dcstep
Major General
United_States
1290
Rep
7,389
Posts

Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [8.40]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Yippy ki aye!!!
That's so '50s. (Mqybe it's Canadian, I don't know for sure).

We now say "Yee hah", just be careful if your actually behind a draft horse, otherwise you could confuse him/her because "yee" sounds a lot like "gee".

Dave
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 09:00 PM   #58
sge92
Private
3
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
here is the dyno from my best run....and the second graph shows my best run from last week (pre-AA software upgrade)
Congratulations. Nice gains.

Did you get the 91 or the 93 octane tune?

Also, who would you recommend in the Toronto area for installation of bolts ons like exhaust, SSK or pulley?
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 09:04 PM   #59
JMD0977
Captain
JMD0977's Avatar
69
Rep
994
Posts

Drives: 2010 GT3 and ....
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: I-95

iTrader: (6)

Nice run
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 09:16 PM   #60
SlammedR8
Major General
SlammedR8's Avatar
Canada
518
Rep
5,483
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5 40i/2020 R8 V10 Spyder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sge92 View Post
Congratulations. Nice gains.

Did you get the 91 or the 93 octane tune?

Also, who would you recommend in the Toronto area for installation of bolts ons like exhaust, SSK or pulley?


PM me for the shop I use...
Its 93 octane. but i can use 91
__________________
Current:
2019 BMW X5 40i - Carbon Black/Tartufo Individual Leather
2020 Range Rover HSE - Black/Black
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Spyder 6MT - Ascari Blue/Black
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2009, 11:52 PM   #61
msile
First Lieutenant
msile's Avatar
82
Rep
373
Posts

Drives: AW M3 Coupe
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida

iTrader: (2)

Awesome numbers. I cant wait to get mine. They are local to me.
__________________
1998 BMW E36 M3. 2018 BMW F80 M3. 2021 Audi R8. 2018 Porsche 991 Turbo. 2023 BMW G80 M3. 2020 Subaru STI. 2021 Porsche GT4 (Track Car).
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2009, 10:39 AM   #62
MMMorish
Just call me J.J. McClure
MMMorish's Avatar
Canada
156
Rep
2,834
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 & C4 Corvette
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (5)

lol Thanks for the tip. It's not Canadian, its a quote from Detective John McClane from the Die Hard movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
That's so '50s. (Mqybe it's Canadian, I don't know for sure).

We now say "Yee hah", just be careful if your actually behind a draft horse, otherwise you could confuse him/her because "yee" sounds a lot like "gee".

Dave
__________________
MODS: Meisterschaft GT Racing Exhaust / BMC Air Filter / UUC SSK & DSSR (Modded)/ RPI Scoops / Passport SRX Hardwired / Custom Wrap 3M Clearbra / 20% Tint / 50% Windshield Tint / Key Hole Delete / Matted Out Accessories / VRS Type II Diffuser / Smoked Reflectors / Euphoria 6K LED Interior Lights / Rear Fog Light Mod / 6000K HID's / 6500K LUX H8 Angel Eyes / RDash License Plate LED Kit / LED Xenon Reverse Lights
"M3 drivers have no friends"
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2009, 03:13 PM   #63
PunjabiM3
Colonel
PunjabiM3's Avatar
United_States
249
Rep
2,084
Posts

Drives: M5 CS
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Flower Mound, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
This is the right math, given the 18% is the "loss."

Seems like a lot from just a pulley, exhaust and chip.
I'm waiting on the Dinan chip to add to throttle bodies and AA exhaust.

Dave
My thoughts exactly. I'm guessing that dyno runs high. I highly doubt a pulley, muffler, and chip will yield 40-50whp as most e9x M3's run around 340whp.
__________________
2012 Audi R8 V10TT| 6MT| Suzuka Grey
2015 Ferrari 458 Speciale| Rosso Scuderia
2020 BMW X7| Mineral White
2022 992 GTS| 7MT | Shark Blue
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2009, 03:21 PM   #64
SlammedR8
Major General
SlammedR8's Avatar
Canada
518
Rep
5,483
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5 40i/2020 R8 V10 Spyder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunjabiM3 View Post
My thoughts exactly. I'm guessing that dyno runs high. I highly doubt a pulley, muffler, and chip will yield 40-50whp as most e9x M3's run around 340whp.
What can I say, I broke my car in good

Dynapack are the most reliable dynos!
__________________
Current:
2019 BMW X5 40i - Carbon Black/Tartufo Individual Leather
2020 Range Rover HSE - Black/Black
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Spyder 6MT - Ascari Blue/Black
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2009, 09:08 PM   #65
Miami335i
New Member
0
Rep
7
Posts

Drives: 2008 E92 335i coupe
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Miami, Florida

iTrader: (0)

Congrats on the numbers...
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2009, 10:42 PM   #66
SlammedR8
Major General
SlammedR8's Avatar
Canada
518
Rep
5,483
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5 40i/2020 R8 V10 Spyder
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (2)

If anyone in Toronto or local areas is interested in doing the AA ECU Upgrade locally (without having to send your ECU to Miami). PM me
__________________
Current:
2019 BMW X5 40i - Carbon Black/Tartufo Individual Leather
2020 Range Rover HSE - Black/Black
2020 Audi R8 V10 Performance Spyder 6MT - Ascari Blue/Black
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:37 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST