Liqui Moly 10W60 Oil

[W///]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

First of all, the other brands of 10w60 mentioned would certainly work fine in the M3, but are they better than the TWS? Where's the data? A single pass uoa with a different oil means nothing. How about a voa (virgin oil analysis) of the "better" oils. In what respect exactly are they better? For comparison here is a recent voa of the currrent formulation of TWS http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=839626.

You can certainly run a lighter grade oil in the M3 (e.g. Mobil1 0w40). As a matter of fact a recent uoa of the factory fill drained at 1200 mi seems to show it is a xw30 wt oil, and a fairly unremarkable one at that (it may even be a conventional mineral oil, as many break-in oils are) -
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=848738.

FWIW, I think the reason BMW specs a 10w60 for the M3 is to counter the thinning effects of fuel dilution over the span of an extended drain. Fuel dilution is not that uncommon in high perf. motors like the s65. In fact if you look at the pds (product description sheets) of many "racing" oils (e.g. the Motul 300V series) you'll see they are intended to deal with fuel dilution. Many uoa's of TWS have shown that by the time the oil has run around 7k mi it is a heavy 40 wt. I don't recall ever seeing a uoa of an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 run to 7k or more; wonder what the viscosity would be at that point?

Franky, I think you could probably run Wolf's Head 5w30 in the M3 and get away with it as long as you kept to very short drain intervals.

As for the indie shops that say their brands of 10w60 are better - - ask them to show you the data. Tischer BMW (aka Get BMW Parts online) have said that the reason they don't offer TWS on sale at lower prices is because their profit margin on TWS oil is so low to begin with. I suspect that is the reason many indies don't offer it but sell other brands with a better profit margin. Still good oils, but better than TWS?

PS for W ///: if you want an oil to run at higher temps, you want a thicker oil like TWS. Thicker oil has more internal friction than a lighter oil and thus runs slightly hotter.

The reason I'm thinking about changing to Mobil1 is for 2 reasons:

1) In case you haven't read this thread (skip to page 6-ish)
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=856441&page=8

2) My commute is around 12 miles. During the winter, my car running 10W60 oil doesn't even reach 210F.

It goes back to bearing wear as well, since the belief is that most wear is happening when the oil is cold. A lighter oil would heat up faster.

The reason I'm not too worried about going to a lighter oil is because there are plenty of high revving engines that don't require such a thick oil. I'm out of warranty anyway.

Originally Posted by track_warrior

See in Texas we get terrible summer temps and my car does see the track at least 5 times in the summer. If BMW is recommending running 10w-60 and they test in germany where temps are much cooler i think we are fine in the US where temps are generally a bit warmer.

I wanted to ask the guys that are running liqui moly if you felt any change in engine noise, power, wear on oil analysis etc. I think TWS is an excellent oil but it always has me wondering is there anything better out there.



The shop where i get my services done is more of a european performance shop they only carry motul but since its not available in the specified 10w-60 weight they told me to supply the oil so i dont think the profit margin is in question here. The bmw tech that works for the shop recommended i try out liqui moly, he said it has a higher zinc content and provides better wear and heat protection. I dont even know the cost difference between TWS and LiquiMoly so im not trying to cheap out, im trying to find the best solution since im planning on keeping the car for a while. Im thinking about doing a blackstone analysis on my current oil that is TWS and then do one when i switch over to liqui moly to see if there is any difference in oil breakdown and wear.

This is the main reason im trying to get some info from people that have already done this to see if its worth it to try 10w-60 liqui moly. My next oil change will not be covered by the service program since im doing oil changes every 5k miles as cheap insurance so i though i would try something else, motul is great stuff unfortunately its not available in the oem specified weight.

For sure, Liqui Moly is cheaper than TWS. I think I got 10 liters of LM and oil filter for $130 shipped.

[m6pwr]

Well, I guess you'll get to see which vis heats up faster.

And for 12 mi commute in really cold weather, I'd take a couple of extra laps - - try to get the oil up to 210 or as close as possible. Seriously.

And if it were me, I'd keep an eye on fuel dilution - - or to put it another way, viscosity. The Mobil 1 0w40 will shear back very quickly to a heavy 30 wt (it's a very light 40 wt out of the bottle) and then keep on thinning out if you have fuel dilution. You're probably going for an intermediate drain interval, but I would check the condition of the oil with a uoa. FWIW I've never seen a uoa on a M3 running Mobil 1 0w40. I'd be very curious to see how that oil performs in an e92 M3, viscosity-wise, if it's run at an extended interval.

PS: I know the early M3's show a little lead in the uoa's. Just so you know most labs and oem's use a limit of 20 ppm lead. Anything in single digits is not a worry.

[Gop-Dogg]

I used the LiquiMoly 10W60 for years in my E46 M3. No issues and it's cheaper than Castrol TWS.

[Leonardo629]

I post my M1 0W40 UOA at BITOG

[Radiation Joe]

My Redline blends (50% 5W-30 street, 50% 40W race) come out at 7k to 8k miles with the same viscosity they went in with. Here are three runs right after changing from TWS.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

I post my M1 0W40 UOA at BITOG

I can't find it. I've never been able to use the search function on BITOG anyway. Can you post a link if you have it?

[W///]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

Well, I guess you'll get to see which vis heats up faster.

And for 12 mi commute in really cold weather, I'd take a couple of extra laps - - try to get the oil up to 210 or as close as possible. Seriously.

And if it were me, I'd keep an eye on fuel dilution - - or to put it another way, viscosity. The Mobil 1 0w40 will shear back very quickly to a heavy 30 wt (it's a very light 40 wt out of the bottle) and then keep on thinning out if you have fuel dilution. You're probably going for an intermediate drain interval, but I would check the condition of the oil with a uoa. FWIW I've never seen a uoa on a M3 running Mobil 1 0w40. I'd be very curious to see how that oil performs in an e92 M3, viscosity-wise, if it's run at an extended interval.

PS: I know the early M3's show a little lead in the uoa's. Just so you know most labs and oem's use a limit of 20 ppm lead. Anything in single digits is not a worry.

What I'm worried is the potential (key word) wear during the time I'm trying to bring the temp up to 210. Of course, I'm keeping it at 3k RPM's or below, but there's not much I can do as there's very little to no stop and go traffic.

If it means lower drain interval, that's fine. This stuff is considerably cheaper than TWS anyway.

[kerkiraios00]

Liqui Moly I think is better its cheaper and my motor runs cooler than when on castrol. I've used it in my previous e46 m3 and my friend uses it on his m5.

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

My Redline blends (50% 5W-30 street, 50% 40W race) come out at 7k to 8k miles with the same viscosity they went in with. Here are three runs right after changing from TWS.

Hi Joe -

How did the phosphorous/zinc get so high? I know you surf BITOG so you may have already seen this thread on excess zddp -
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2481655&page=1

Here's an excerpt -

In December, 2007, the publication GM Techlink, distributed to GM dealers, contained an article by a GM lubrication guru, Bob Olree, of the GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group. As well as debunking certain other erroneous ideas about oil, he addresses the ZDDP question in detail. In that article, he flatly calls the concern about ZDDP a “myth,” citing the extensive testing of modern oils for scuff resistance. One paragraph is especially worth repeating here:
A higher level of ZDDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
So, more is not necessarily better. It’s a good idea to keep this in mind before using high-ZDDP racing oil, diesel oil, or any other additives in a street engine.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

My Redline blends (50% 5W-30 street, 50% 40W race) come out at 7k to 8k miles with the same viscosity they went in with. Here are three runs right after changing from TWS.

Great report, Joe. Nice to see Redline using more moly ... zero lead ... looks like you have a nice recipe here.

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

I can't find it. I've never been able to use the search function on BITOG anyway. Can you post a link if you have it?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2726763

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted by sensi09

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2726763

Thanks for posting the link. Good uoa for 2800 mi drain, and a lively discussion.

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

Hi Joe -

How did the phosphorous/zinc get so high? I know you surf BITOG so you may have already seen this thread on excess zddp -
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2481655&page=1

Here's an excerpt -

In December, 2007, the publication GM Techlink, distributed to GM dealers, contained an article by a GM lubrication guru, Bob Olree, of the GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group. As well as debunking certain other erroneous ideas about oil, he addresses the ZDDP question in detail. In that article, he flatly calls the concern about ZDDP a “myth,” citing the extensive testing of modern oils for scuff resistance. One paragraph is especially worth repeating here:
A higher level of ZDDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
So, more is not necessarily better. It’s a good idea to keep this in mind before using high-ZDDP racing oil, diesel oil, or any other additives in a street engine.

Playing devils advocate, this article has a few engine and cam companies that say modern api approved oils have the bare minimum requirements of phosphorus and zinc and recommended racing oils that are not api approved or restricted. It also mentions that racing oils with higher levels of anti wear additives and frequent oil changes can get away with a lighter weight oil:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...continues.aspx

I'm wondering how much money bmw saves by extending the oil change intervals. Thus requiring a specific weight and properties to keep the cats alive, motor alive, and meeting the api levels. Maybe 10w60 tws is not the end-all best oil or even weight. If a lot of bear I g wear happens on startup, maybe a lighter weight oil is better...


0.02

[m6pwr]

Interesting article. But it's all over the place - - almost like the Bible, I could pick and choose and quote an excerpt to make any point I want. Many generalizations. Is the author talking about the zddp needs of a motor like the s65 or the s54, overhead cams with direct springing for four tiny valves per cylinder. Or does he have in mind some honking American V8 with the inertia of push rod valve trains pushing two large valves per cylinder?

Would any one in his right mind use a GF5 API SN "star burst" oil in an M3? If we're talking about a true racing application (ALMS, SCCA, etc), then yes, a true racing oil would be a logical choice. Race it for a day or weekend, then drain it. Forget the API certs. Drag racing with supercharging and nitrous (an M3?), then maybe 1700 ppm zddp would be in order (promptly drained). Street use, even with the mighty s65, with some hpde schools thrown in, I think TWS will do just fine. I don't do schools any more but back in the day, I did 6 or 7 each year on the east coast (Wash DC). Pretty tight group of track junkies in the club and none to my knowledge ever used a "racing oil", and a couple of them had high mileage BMWs. And when I say track junkies, i mean guys and girls that would do Summit Point one weekend, drive to Mid Ohio the next, then Bridgehampton the next, Road Atlanta the next, the New Hampshire track (can't remember the name) next, Lime Rock the next, and one uber junkie would even drive nearly half way across the US to Road America. All on the BMW spec'd API/ACEA oil.

FWIW I still have a voa of TWS that I did back in 2009. It was a API SJ oil. The voa showed phos/zinc of 641/796. I think it had some vegetable ester in it ( probably castor oil) for antiwear, but that doesn't show up in a voa. So much for zddp. It's not the be-all, end-all of motor oil. In fact I think the article quotes a source to that effect. The newer formulation TWS is API SM and has, in my opinion, a very strong AW package: generous amt of zddp 859/902, plus some serious other AW adds like moly, boron, and titanium.

As for bearing wear on start-up, if i lived in upper New York State or upper Minnesota, I would probably use a 0w40 oil like Mobil 1 in the dead of winter with morning temps sub zero. For sure it would flow better on start-up than TWS 10w60. Less wear? Who knows. Never seen any "start-up" wear data comparing the two. But I'd err on the side of the lighter oil.

[m6pwr]

More on the subject of lighter oils in M cars. This morning I came across a uoa on BITOG from a e39 M5 using Mobil 1 0w40 during the Canadian winter. The oil performed fine. It was run at either 6000 mi or 10,000 mi (the uoa report is hard to read - - can't tell if it's miles or kilometers). The lab flagged fuel dilution as abnormal - - looks like it was up around 5 or 6% which is pretty high but not surprising in winter (most labs consider 2% the upper limit). The oil sheared back to a heavy 30 wt. So it did ok in winter, particularly considering the fuel dilution. Not sure how it would do in Texas summers, at 105 F temp.

As for racing application, a very experienced lubricant engineer (Doug Hillary), who has worked for both Castrol and Exxon/Mobil, told me in an email that the BMW factory team running e92 M3's at the Nurburgring 24 hr race used TWS 10w60. Same for the Audi factory team running the R8's.

There's a current thread on Bitog discussing the use of Mobil 1 0w40 in Porsche engines. In it Hillary makes the following observation: "The Mobil 1 0W-40 at the Nurburgring was standard stuff as was the Castrol lubricants used. And I did spend time with Castrol and BMW's specialist engine development people there as well! As you know I have an extensive history with Castrol and the development of Castrol Formula R Synthetic 15W-50 (red, ester based)(SE) into the 10W-60 that has been so successful for so long."

For anyone interested, the entire thread is here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...65#Post3091965.

For those that believe "light is right and thin is in", Hillary has also said that some teams at the Nurburgring race were experimenting with 5w20 oils (presumably racing oils, but who knows, maybe street oils).

And 0w15 oils are coming, too.

[PhillyNate]

Shout out to VAC Motorsports in Philly. Couldn't get my usual Liqui Moly but they have Total 10w60 for only $8 fucking dollars a bottle. Wow!

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

My Redline blends (50% 5W-30 street, 50% 40W race) come out at 7k to 8k miles with the same viscosity they went in with. Here are three runs right after changing from TWS.

Joe, do you track your car? I'm kind of impressed with these numbers.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Joe, do you track your car? I'm kind of impressed with these numbers.

I am embarrassed to say this car has never seen the track. I have 16 lb magnesium racing wheels, PF-01 pads, 450 hp and the car gets used to commute 2 hours to work. All the good parts just sit in the garage patiently waiting. I just haven't made the time to get out.

If your car does get to the track, there are only two oils to use in my mind, Redline and Motul. Those are the only two ester based oils commonly available. Ester base stocks are superior to other synthetic stocks for high temperature stability. The old Castrol RS, which was the basis for the current TWS was ester based, but Castrol changed the formulation a few years back. TWS is no longer produced from ester base stocks. In my opinion, TWS is not the best choice for track use.

If you don't go to the track, TWS is not appropriate, either. It's too heavy. If temps aren't getting over 220F, you should be running a 0W-40 like Mobil-1 or the equivalent Pennzoil Ultra formulation. These two seem to be the best street oils out there right now. Plenty of folks run the 0W-40 M1 on the track as well. There is also the Amsoil choice, for those so inclined.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Where is Longwong ?

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Where is Longwong ?

I'm trying to fill in for him.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

I'm trying to fill in for him.

Good from you,but actualy we need to call him ....not Longwong but ....Oilwong !

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Lute

Agreed where is our local oil guru? The timing of his disappearance is also very suspicious.

I miss him too !