Sponsored by The Tire Rack

[MysticBlue]

Anybody have any info on when we can expect delivery of front 19" PS2's? I ordered a 245/35ZR19 from the Tire Rack a month ago. Just wondering if this is going to be weeks or months.

[signes]

Not sure but since PS3s are coming out now in limited sizes I wouldn't expect good stock on PS2s going forward. Try to get somebody to part with the fronts in the classified section - most people want the rears anyway so you might have luck with a near-new pair for a lot less.

[Richbot]

The Pilot Sport 3 doesn't look like a replacement for the PS2, it's a 300+ treadwear low rolling-resistance tire. The tread blocks are smaller and there is a lot more siping. Doubt the PS2 is going anywhere anytime soon, it is still "the tire" for OE applications and it's still being speced for more OE applications.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I thought Michelin were touting the PS3 as a replacement for the PS2. They went to the trouble of producing graphs directly comparing the performance of the PS2 against the PS3.

[KINGLEH]

def looks like a replacement for the PS2... obviously since its named PS3....

and has same or better performance.. making it a better tires... ie. upgrade..... no matter the tread ware rating...

[FruitCake]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

def looks like a replacement for the PS2... obviously since its named PS3....

and has same or better performance.. making it a better tires... ie. upgrade..... no matter the tread ware rating...

omfg its KINGLEH

[Richbot]

Leh - They can market it all they want, show me the data. PS3 > PS2 because 3>2? That little "envelope" chart posted above says it will wear better with better hydroplaning resistance. There's no free lunch, even at $350 per tire that sacrifice had to come from somewhere. I bet they took a big bite out of dry performance to get it.

But you never know, maybe they've worked some more French magic. The PS2's have proven to be pretty unbeatable for an all-around street tire 5 years later.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Richbot

That little "envelope" chart posted above says it will wear better with better hydroplaning resistance. There's no free lunch, even at $350 per tire that sacrifice had to come from somewhere. I bet they took a big bite out of dry performance to get it.

The chart shows the same dry performance with increased wet performance.

[KINGLEH]

Originally Posted by FruitCake

omfg its KINGLEH

yaaaaay....!





so i am Hoping Michelin is gona surprise us with a hotrod street tire in the next couple of years... Looks like the PS3, although has same performance as PS2, is leaning more toward a all arounder tire...

Which should make room for a hot and sticky 160-200 treadwear... More performance based tire?



I just made the switch to Pirelli P Zero.. and it so far seems to be a better tire then the PS2.. in the same sizes (the Pzero runs bigger though)... More grip and less road noise... both 220tw.. So i will most likely never buy a PS2 again... but..... I am not saying i wont ever buy Michelin again!

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

yaaaaay....!





so i am Hoping Michelin is gona surprise us with a hotrod street tire in the next couple of years... Looks like the PS3, although has same performance as PS2, is leaning more toward a all arounder tire...

Which should make room for a hot and sticky 160-200 treadwear... More performance based tire?



I just made the switch to Pirelli P Zero.. and it so far seems to be a better tire then the PS2.. in the same sizes (the Pzero runs bigger though)... More grip and less road noise... both 220tw.. So i will most likely never buy a PS2 again... but..... I am not saying i wont ever buy Michelin again!

Ah thats right you race in a Pirelli spec tire series

actually I have had very good luck with Pirelli's in the past.It probally is worth looking at the PZero's.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

yaaaaay....!

I just made the switch to Pirelli P Zero.. and it so far seems to be a better tire then the PS2.. in the same sizes (the Pzero runs bigger though)... More grip and less road noise... both 220tw.. So i will most likely never buy a PS2 again... but..... I am not saying i wont ever buy Michelin again!

Did you get a free Pirelli calendar?


Cheers.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The chart shows the same dry performance with increased wet performance.

Yup. That chart is chock full of empirical data.

[FruitCake]

Originally Posted by KINGLEH

yaaaaay....!





so i am Hoping Michelin is gona surprise us with a hotrod street tire in the next couple of years... Looks like the PS3, although has same performance as PS2, is leaning more toward a all arounder tire...

Which should make room for a hot and sticky 160-200 treadwear... More performance based tire?



I just made the switch to Pirelli P Zero.. and it so far seems to be a better tire then the PS2.. in the same sizes (the Pzero runs bigger though)... More grip and less road noise... both 220tw.. So i will most likely never buy a PS2 again... but..... I am not saying i wont ever buy Michelin again!

big fan <----------

[KINGLEH]

Originally Posted by ersin

Did you get a free Pirelli calendar?


Cheers.

The team owner was given one in 2007 and he gave it to me.. So yes.. i do have a 2007 calender.. and i change the picture once a year (the pics are so good they last a year!).. and there is 24 total pictures... so it should last me a while!!...

Its really a piece of art...

[KINGLEH]

Originally Posted by FruitCake

big fan <----------

sweet.. thanks!!

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Yup. That chart is chock full of empirical data.

You can't figure it out? Or is it National Obtuse week and I didn't notice?

[carman26]

Originally Posted by MysticBlue

Anybody have any info on when we can expect delivery of front 19" PS2's? I ordered a 245/35ZR19 from the Tire Rack a month ago. Just wondering if this is going to be weeks or months.

I have a used set of fronts if you are interested; I needed new rears and went with a different tire so replaced all 4

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

You can't figure it out? Or is it National Obtuse week and I didn't notice?

Senor, my obtuseness is rivaled only by your own. LOOK at the tire. There is less tread void on the PS2 than the PS3, with larger tread blocks, which means the PS2 puts more rubber on the road in the same size and the tread blocks deflect less, generating less internal friction, leading to better high-temperature performance. READ the specs. The compound is bound to be harder because the treadwear rating is higher and they use their "chart" to say that it will last longer than the PS2, not to mention it is listed as a low rolling resistance tire, which means a compound with less adhesion. THINK about what that means. Less rubber on the road, and harder rubber, is somehow going to perform as well in the dry as a tire with more rubber on the road, in a softer compound?

There is absolutely no data in that chart, just puffery. It's designed to look like a friction circle, and look all sciency, but it's not. They threw some numbers on it which look like they're supposed to be percentages, I suppose, because there are no units (units tell you whether you're talking about motor oil or beams of light, they're important). It appears to have been generated by their marketing department, and it looks like it worked!

Dry grip is what I'm talking about here, because that's what I think is marketing fiddlefaddle in this chart. The PS2's are good enough for me in the wet, but I'm sure it compares favorably in the wet with that tread pattern, although in damp conditions the softer compound would probably still give the advantage to the PS2. I drink the Michelin koolaid along with everyone else, they make the best road-going stuff out there (and I own 9 of them), but let's not be another message board full of misinformation just because we're unwilling to THINK.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Richbot

It appears to have been generated by their marketing department, and it looks like it worked!

Firstly: in Euro land companies are penalised if they make false advertising claims for products (it takes few complaints to initiate an investigation). The tyre has been independently tested by TUV to back up its claims for increased wet weather performance.
B: The changes in tread pattern, carcass construction and compound are to allow the tyre to heat up quickly at low speed & low ambient temps while remaining cooler under high load...certainly the major disappointment of the PS2 is the big drop off in performance at low temperatures and it seems that Michelin have tried to address this in the PS3.
iii) Only if tyre design was a 100% mature technology could you assume that an advantage gained at one part of the performance envelope would be at the expense of one lost at another.

I'm as cynical as the next person but I don't see why I shouldn't believe Michelin's claims - they are hardly outrageous - and they don't have form for lying.

[MysticBlue]

Originally Posted by carman26

I have a used set of fronts if you are interested; I needed new rears and went with a different tire so replaced all 4

Thanks, but I'm hoping that won't be necessary. I've still got some life left on my originals (and 1 more track day), so I'm not desperate yet. I was hoping someone from the Tirerack would chime in here with some info regarding my original question. (Since they sponsor this subforum, I would think someone there could do that).

[the///Mthree]

If your really in a jam(like I was) you just have to settle for the non bmw 245/35/19. I got a small cut in the sidewall of one of my fronts, I waited about a month and still no news on the backorder. I havnt got to drive it hard yet to see if their is a slight difference, If you dont track your car you should get the non bmw spec ps2 today!

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Firstly: in Euro land companies are penalised if they make false advertising claims for products (it takes few complaints to initiate an investigation). The tyre has been independently tested by TUV to back up its claims for increased wet weather performance.
B: The changes in tread pattern, carcass construction and compound are to allow the tyre to heat up quickly at low speed & low ambient temps while remaining cooler under high load...certainly the major disappointment of the PS2 is the big drop off in performance at low temperatures and it seems that Michelin have tried to address this in the PS3.
iii) Only if tyre design was a 100% mature technology could you assume that an advantage gained at one part of the performance envelope would be at the expense of one lost at another.

I'm as cynical as the next person but I don't see why I shouldn't believe Michelin's claims - they are hardly outrageous - and they don't have form for lying.

There's a difference between an investigation and a penalty. Most false advertising investigations end up with zero liability for the manufacturer because while any regulatory body is required to do its due diligence in responding to complaints, a company is allowed to get away with a lot of puffery to try to sell its product, with the burden falling on the consumer to do its research and come up with its own purchase decision. Hence the lack of data. I am not accusing Michelin of lying. There's a difference between marketing and truth, and we should be happy caveat emptor still applies to some extent, even in Eurodisney.

Anyway, I have no further use for explaining my position because I am 100% convinced by the overwhelming flood of empirical data you have cited in your response. +1 internet to you. Tell your friends.