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      02-28-2011, 03:07 AM   #23
brava09
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For 50k less, the M3 is a pretty capable car compared to 997 PDK 385hp...not to mention a more practical car as well.

And if the P driver is not very skilled, I can give him a good run for his money....
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      02-28-2011, 03:41 AM   #24
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All that extra money for 2-3% extra performance seems like a poor return. Drive them back to back and there is no annihilation....that sort of hyperbole just sounds like badge snobbery.
Porsche need to seriously up their game with the 997, upstarts like the M3 shouldn't be snapping at its heels.
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      02-28-2011, 04:24 AM   #25
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As I said these two cars are two total different animal. Sport sedan vs sports car is not fair. 997 you can hardly fit someone at the back. You hardly have enough space at front trunk. BMW M3 can do all these no problem. So M3 is not bad for what you pay for.

Need space and good performer get the M3
Need no space and excellent performer get the 997

Despite the speed and everything. I find FR is easier to drive than RR car. Heck, I'd be going faster in the M3 than C2S. If you are too afraid you can always get the C4/C4S
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      02-28-2011, 12:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Honestly, cherry picking ONE lap where the easier to drive M3 was barely faster than a harder to drive 911 by an amateur proves nothing. times of the 997.2S vs the M3, the 997S kills DOES annihilate it.

On fastest laps, its faster on 11 out of 12 tracks, and most of them by large margin. And the only one its not is the the VIR course done by C&D.

15 seconds faster on the ring
.35 faster on Tsukuba
.6 on Hockenheim
~2 sec on Variano
1.1 on autozeitung
~1 sec on balocco
~2 sec on sport auto WET course
~1.5 on sachsenring
~2 sec on camden airport
.7 on anglesey national
~3 sec on magny cours

Looks pretty one sided to me. And mind you most of these laps are in the 1-2 mins range.

Fact of the matter is, both cars driven at full potential, the 997S is faster. Hell, even the 997.1S is faster on a lot of tracks than our M3s are.
I said it was close, and that yes it is faster. My thread tried to make a point that the 911S does not "annihilate" the M3. Faster yes, annihilate no. You have helped me make that point.
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      02-28-2011, 12:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
All that extra money for 2-3% extra performance seems like a poor return. Drive them back to back and there is no annihilation....that sort of hyperbole just sounds like badge snobbery.
Porsche need to seriously up their game with the 997, upstarts like the M3 shouldn't be snapping at its heels.
well said and, as a former 997 owner, I totally agree.
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      02-28-2011, 12:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Its really not that close. 15 seconds on the ring is a lifetime. .6 on hockenheim is a pretty good margin.
Mind you (again) most of the laps are sub 2 minute laps where even a 1 second difference on a lap that short is pretty significant. And the 997.2S holds a 1 second or more faster time on 8/12 (75%) of the times.



Its far more than just 2-3% more performance...and if you think thats all you get for the extra money, you just dont get it. Things like the best steering you will get (other than a lotus), the best 6mt on the market, the perfect clutch engagement, brakes that can take abuse all day and not fade, etc all add the to experience. Theres a reason why Porsche can charge so much and people will pay it. Its the same why people will pay more for an M3 than a 335. Otherwise you should have saved youself 20K and bought a 335 coupe that only gives up 2-3% of performance to the m3.
You win.

Are you happy now? Jeez....

Edit: I respect your opinion, I just get exasperated because sometimes it's difficult on this forum to make a point without everyone jumping to the first line of your thread without reading the rest.

Again- I said it was close, not annihilation. Of course there are aspects of both cars that are inferior and superior, we can argue them indefinitely all day as has been done on this forum.

Thanks!
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Last edited by Montoya; 02-28-2011 at 01:02 PM.
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      02-28-2011, 02:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Its far more than just 2-3% more performance...and if you think thats all you get for the extra money, you just dont get it.
I owned Porshes for 20 years so I do fully "get it".

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Things like the best steering you will get (other than a lotus), the best 6mt on the market, the perfect clutch engagement, brakes that can take abuse all day and not fade, etc all add the to experience. Theres a reason why Porsche can charge so much and people will pay it.
The problem is that the difference in price simply doesn't buy you the performance it should. A typical 1 second improvement over a 100 second lap really isn't impressive and it shows when you drive the two cars back to back on the road. When you switch from the M3 DCT to a 997.2 C2S PDK there is a barely perceptible increase in acceleration and while the 997 is fully at home on a smooth road surface it wouldn't keep up with the M3 on uneven bumpy country roads.
Porsche buyers, in part, buy into the marque, which is lucky for Porsche because if they had to sell solely on performance/dollar the 997 sales would surely struggle.
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      02-28-2011, 03:25 PM   #30
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Regular Carrera or S don't do much for me.It's GT3 or bust when it comes to Porsche.If its gonna be sports car I'm buying its got to be an uncompromising all out sports car and that exactly what Porsche GT cars are.

M3 is best all around car for me.Can do it all except carry drywall from the local home depot
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      02-28-2011, 04:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandye90m3 View Post
I actually think it's just as good to drive than the m3. Other than the boot size, I don't see a difference in the drive.
You feel every bump in the road in a Porsche

Steering is always stiff

can get uncomfortable after a long drive

A Porsche is the perfect second car.... but not the best to be your only car.

I loved my previous porches... and I want a P car again

But I can't have it as my only car, I'd break my back lol

The M I can be in comfort mode and barely feel anything
Then put it in Sport+ and have a go at it :P

though in Sport+ it still doesn't handle as well as a Porsche, but I bought a 2ton vert to enjoy daily driving over pin point rail driving
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      02-28-2011, 06:04 PM   #32
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Perhaps BMW could market a performance option to produce a similar drive to the 997.2
An extra 15bhp, a little stiffer suspension and a tweak to the set up to give livelier steering.
I would think $5k would do it....and you end up with the same drive but still have the extra seats and extra boot space as well as a wad of cash left over.
Porsche drivers would be queuing up to buy such a car!!
Or maybe not.
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      02-28-2011, 06:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Perhaps BMW could market a performance option to produce a similar drive to the 997.2
An extra 15bhp, a little stiffer suspension and a tweak to the set up to give livelier steering.
I would think $5k would do it....and you end up with the same drive but still have the extra seats and extra boot space as well as a wad of cash left over.
Porsche drivers would be queuing up to buy such a car!!
Or maybe not.
there's much larger differences between the car than just the give and take between the power and weight and the firmer suspension. the difference in driving dynamics is enormous - can't compare a car with 50/50 weight distribution to one that's 40/60 (or thereabouts - not exactly sure) F/R. not to mention the shorter wheelbase of the 911.
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      02-28-2011, 07:20 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Honestly, cherry picking ONE lap where the easier to drive M3 was barely faster than a harder to drive 911 by an amateur proves nothing. times of the 997.2S vs the M3, the 997S kills DOES annihilate it.

On fastest laps, its faster on 11 out of 12 tracks, and most of them by large margin. And the only one its not is the the VIR course done by C&D.

15 seconds faster on the ring
.35 faster on Tsukuba
.6 on Hockenheim
~2 sec on Variano
1.1 on autozeitung
~1 sec on balocco
~2 sec on sport auto WET course
~1.5 on sachsenring
~2 sec on camden airport
.7 on anglesey national
~3 sec on magny cours

Looks pretty one sided to me. And mind you most of these laps are in the 1-2 mins range.

Fact of the matter is, both cars driven at full potential, the 997S is faster. Hell, even the 997.1S is faster on a lot of tracks than our M3s are.
Your 15 sec. advantage for the ring is a 997.2S with PSCs on the car vs. a 2008 M3 on PS2s. A 997.2S with PS2's clocked the ring at 7:58 vs. the 8:05 for the M3, however, I heard a 2011 ZCP car with DCT ran a 8:00 flat.

I was actually shocked that the 997.2S was only .1 sec faster around the ring vs. the 997.1S time of 7:59 with the sport suspension and PASM on sport.

That all being said, to be fast with a 997S you really have to know how to drive it. The M3 is a much easier car to go fast in while the 997S you really have to learn the car to go fast.
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      02-28-2011, 10:13 PM   #35
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Porsche wins, but M3 more practical.
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      02-28-2011, 11:04 PM   #36
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You guys are smoking too much of the P Crack they are selling you, it's all hype, 911's aren't that great.
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      03-01-2011, 10:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
The 997.2S was on cup + tires, but the M3 was too! so its a fair comparo and its 15 secs faster.

heres the link...scroll to the bottom where it says the m3 was on cup +.

http://www.sportauto-online.de/super...d-1036129.html

And theres no proof a zcp car went 8:00. Thats pure speculation.
Thanks Greg, I always thought this time was on regular PS2s. I do realize the tires they used aren't the same PSC's that the E46 CSL had but still it had to make a difference.

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      03-01-2011, 11:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
i guess its all luck that they beat down BMW, Ferrari, Chevy, etc year in a year out in motorsport racing and are the benchmark in every segment they make a car.

best driver's car in the world: GT3 RS
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/253307/

Best handling car in america: Boxster Spyder
http://www.germancarblog.com/2010/09...rica%E2%80%9D/

EVO mag; best of the best: #1 GT3 RS, #3 GT2 RS
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466760

The list could go on and on.

yea, all hype

Thats great. All that above is based on opinions. C & D had the opinion in an issue that a M3 was better than a 911 turbo and GTR.

Does that make the M3 better then a 911 turbo because there is a link on it out there??

I'm just sayin' the 911 (even the S) isn't that great of a car for the money if you compare it to the M3. You guys lovin' off 911's are smoking P crack and then dropping the GT3 RS in there is just dumb; its a lightweight and roll caged race car thats freaking street legal. How is that even remotely similar to a M3?
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      03-03-2011, 03:11 AM   #39
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I stand corrected...

Only one point I will mention... if you actually option out each car the same (idrive, active suspension, LSD, leather sport seats with memory, etc) the gap gets just a little bigger. Porsche comes with zippo options and charges a ton for them.
this is the biggest con of p cars. if i want pdk with paddle shifters, its gonna cost me over 5k, vs less than 3k for m-dct.
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      03-03-2011, 03:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post


Its far more than just 2-3% more performance...and if you think thats all you get for the extra money, you just dont get it. Things like the best steering you will get (other than a lotus), the best 6mt on the market, the perfect clutch engagement, brakes that can take abuse all day and not fade, etc all add the to experience. Theres a reason why Porsche can charge so much and people will pay it. Its the same why people will pay more for an M3 than a 335. Otherwise you should have saved youself 20K and bought a 335 coupe that only gives up 2-3% of performance to the m3.
you NAILED it. theres so much more to a 911 or a cayman than whats on paper.

same situation with the m3.
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      03-03-2011, 03:21 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip View Post
The Next Gen Cayman S or 911....I'm getting one. I just need to get out of college.
lol, and i just need to get into medical school. lol. waiting for the 991 or 981 sucks, but lotta ppl are speculating that they wont disappoint...which is more than i can say for the f3x m3
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      03-03-2011, 03:32 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by aus View Post

GT3/GT3-RS is where its at.

GT2 RS is where its at.

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