Experienced opinions needed M-DCT vs. 6MT

[drvai]

Originally Posted by rvacha

Gwtting back to the original question, there are no experienced opinions because nobody has experienced M-DCT. There are only opinions.

Exactly. You all have to consider this is a new gearbox and may be crap. AND NOT BECAUSE IS A DCT, but because of the model itself. (VW's work great).

[M-Maika]

Originally Posted by drvai

Exactly. You all have to consider this is a new gearbox and may be crap. AND NOT BECAUSE IS A DCT, but because of the model itself. (VW's work great).

Yeah, it may be crap, but it can also be very good.
Until we have some nice reviews from auto magazines we never know.
Let´s wait an see what happens.

[swamp2]

Guys, a few FACTS (and some solid theories):

Please stop calling the M-DCT an automatic, it is a manaul transmission controlled by computer and hydraulics. The internals neither look nor operate anything like an automatic - they look and operate like a manual with two clutches in parallel. Sure just like SMG it will have an automatic mode but the automatic modes WILL be superior to all true automatics on shift times, smoothness, efficiency and performance. That is simply the nature of the beast and you do not have to have driven one to conclude this with 99.9% certainty. This is not speculation, look at VW/Audi, Bugatti, Mitsubishi and Nissan as well. The best term for a DCT or DSG is AUTOMATED MANUAL. There is no reason, especially given BMWs history, focus and capability that the M-DCT won't be the best DCT yet on the market. The Bugatti box may be stronger and lighter (and 20x the cost...) but the BMW will very likely have better software and software is one of the most important keys to DCTs.

There is still some debate on what the true feeling of very aggressive shifts with DCT will be like, this is mostly speculation because indeed no one in the journalism trades nor general public have driven one. In general implementations of DCT that have been driven are all very smooth compared to SMG (II or III). This is again an inherent part of the dual clutch design where one clutch goes in simulataneously as the other goes out (always, all shifts). This contributes to a very smooth and very fast shift. However, the engine and flywheel momentum still have to be dissipated, and depending on the setting and particulars of the DCT software (spark/fuel cut, throttle lift/re-apply, clutch speeds and phases, etc.) shifts will be more rough in the most aggressive settings while remaining silky smooth in the least agressive settings. I am quite sure that there is no way in hell it will snap/jerk anywhere close to SMG in its most agressive modes. The BMW press release does also mention that the more aggressive modes will have more of a "traditional" feel with more jerk. Just don't expect SMG like jerk, realize that simultaneous=smooth=more power to the ground=faster=less wear. I know that a perfect shift in a MT or SMG in its most aggressive mode just feels good and right and fast but it isn't, not compared to DCT. Just like we needed to accept battery powered starters, ABS, fuel injection, digital motor electronics, etc., etc., we need to accept and appreciate M-DCT for what it is. A revolutionary transmission and the future replacement for a great many MTs and ATs.

Originally Posted by drvai

MT gives a better feel of the car, and that's a fact. Now, if you want the option of having an automatic, then the DCG will give you the nice option of shifting without a manual clutch and have an auto option at the same time.

Machines can't replace humans. (at least not yet).

MT gives you a better feeling of rowing your own gears which is really nothing more than pushing and pulling levers with your hands and feet. Some call this driving or "the car" or whatever and sure perfected heel and toe is fun and impressive - BUT - it is not driving or "the car", is it ROWING.

And lastly machines have replaced humans in countless applications, industry, manufacaturing, robots, computers, households, EVERYWHERE. Machines and software do an immensely better job at so many tasks that humans just can not accomplish. Why do you think pushing a pedal and pulling a lever is one one-millionth as complicated as say landing a commercial aircraft in bad weather or better yet the landing the space shuttle! There are many task (obviously) where people really best computers but shifting ain't one of them.

If you couldn't tell... M-DCT FTW.

[drvai]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And lastly machines have replaced humans in countless applications, industry, manufacaturing, robots, computers, households, EVERYWHERE. Machines and software do an immensely better job at so many tasks that humans just can not accomplish. Why do you think pushing a pedal and pulling a lever is one one-millionth as complicated as say landing a commercial aircraft in bad weather or better yet the landing the space shuttle! There are many task (obviously) where people really best computers but shifting ain't one of them.

If you couldn't tell... M-DCT FTW.

I need to correct my past response: Some of us, shift better than a machine.

[lucid]

Although I did not order DCT for various reasons, no human can shift faster than a DCT system.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by drvai

I need to correct my past response: Some of us, shift better than a machine.

Thats bold

[devo]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Thats bold

I guess that depends on what his definition of better is. No matter how good, (as most of us know) he'll never be faster than M-DCT.

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Guys, a few FACTS (and some solid theories):

Please stop calling the M-DCT an automatic, it is a manaul transmission controlled by computer and hydraulics. The internals neither look nor operate anything like an automatic - they look and operate like a manual with two clutches in parallel. Sure just like SMG it will have an automatic mode but the automatic modes WILL be superior to all true automatics on shift times, smoothness, efficiency and performance. That is simply the nature of the beast and you do not have to have driven one to conclude this with 99.9% certainty. This is not speculation, look at VW/Audi, Bugatti, Mitsubishi and Nissan as well. The best term for a DCT or DSG is AUTOMATED MANUAL. There is no reason, especially given BMWs history, focus and capability that the M-DCT won't be the best DCT yet on the market. The Bugatti box may be stronger and lighter (and 20x the cost...) but the BMW will very likely have better software and software is one of the most important keys to DCTs.

There is still some debate on what the true feeling of very aggressive shifts with DCT will be like, this is mostly speculation because indeed no one in the journalism trades nor general public have driven one. In general implementations of DCT that have been driven are all very smooth compared to SMG (II or III). This is again an inherent part of the dual clutch design where one clutch goes in simulataneously as the other goes out (always, all shifts). This contributes to a very smooth and very fast shift. However, the engine and flywheel momentum still have to be dissipated, and depending on the setting and particulars of the DCT software (spark/fuel cut, throttle lift/re-apply, clutch speeds and phases, etc.) shifts will be more rough in the most aggressive settings while remaining silky smooth in the least agressive settings. I am quite sure that there is no way in hell it will snap/jerk anywhere close to SMG in its most agressive modes. The BMW press release does also mention that the more aggressive modes will have more of a "traditional" feel with more jerk. Just don't expect SMG like jerk, realize that simultaneous=smooth=more power to the ground=faster=less wear. I know that a perfect shift in a MT or SMG in its most aggressive mode just feels good and right and fast but it isn't, not compared to DCT. Just like we needed to accept battery powered starters, ABS, fuel injection, digital motor electronics, etc., etc., we need to accept and appreciate M-DCT for what it is. A revolutionary transmission and the future replacement for a great many MTs and ATs.



MT gives you a better feeling of rowing your own gears which is really nothing more than pushing and pulling levers with your hands and feet. Some call this driving or "the car" or whatever and sure perfected heel and toe is fun and impressive - BUT - it is not driving or "the car", is it ROWING.

And lastly machines have replaced humans in countless applications, industry, manufacaturing, robots, computers, households, EVERYWHERE. Machines and software do an immensely better job at so many tasks that humans just can not accomplish. Why do you think pushing a pedal and pulling a lever is one one-millionth as complicated as say landing a commercial aircraft in bad weather or better yet the landing the space shuttle! There are many task (obviously) where people really best computers but shifting ain't one of them.

If you couldn't tell... M-DCT FTW.

I agree with all of this, but some like the action of moving those levers. If the steering was better done by a computer and that meant not using a conventional steering wheel any more, would that mean we should adopt it? Some things are more satisfying doing it yourself. I still may eventually go the DCT route, but even if I do, I will always understand why people love a stick.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by drvai

I need to correct my past response: Some of us, shift better than a machine.

Are you on crack or PCP? Are you serious?? You really think you can shift better than a computer + hydraulic tranny?

If you are serious, I am going to note your posts and haunt you for all your other fantasies.

[Davo2003]

Thanks for the feedback...

[psychobabble]

For me it is time to move on with the new technology. Every car I've owned from 1984 until my 02 M3 has been MT and I think that I shift quite well. Where I live I rarely get stuck in traffic for extended periods but I've had enough of creeping along in 1st and 2nd with the occasional left calf cramp.

As far as I understand, DCT still allows you to decide when to hold a gear, when to drop down, how many gears you want to jump, etc. but only faster and minus the left leg workout.

I will order DCT with my M3. I will miss the subconscious interplay between my feet and right hand along with the ability to feather the clutch when necessary but still, for me, it's time to embrace this technology.

The belief that true sports cars only have MT is archaic, just like some feel that true sports cars only have two seats.

[e36jakeo]

DCT= 7-speeds = better + closer gearing = faster = more fun!

[eclipsisNA]

Originally Posted by devo

T Bone,
How have the 6MT M5/6's fared in the market? Which is more sought after, a stick or SMGII?

The 6MT M5s faired so poorly that BMW offered remaining 07s at some ludicrous lease price like $999 a month (36 mo.).

[geoff2010]

how come everyone is so hung up on the efficiency and performance of the M-DCT gearbox? What ever happened to driving a car to simply drive a car... i can't imagine that more than a small percentage of people on this board are going to track these cars. that being said... i know i personally will always prefer being fully engaged in the driving experience as opposed to being just a couple hairs quicker.

Where do you draw the line? If they come up with laser guided steering mechanisms which by using mirrors and sensors on the road can have a car repeatedly hit the perfect apex of every turn... would you trade your steering wheel for one because you could turn faster lap times?

MT FTW!

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by geoff2010

how come everyone is so hung up on the efficiency and performance of the M-DCT gearbox? What ever happened to driving a car to simply drive a car... i can't imagine that more than a small percentage of people on this board are going to track these cars. that being said... i know i personally will always prefer being fully engaged in the driving experience as opposed to being just a couple hairs quicker.

Where do you draw the line? If they come up with laser guided steering mechanisms which by using mirrors and sensors on the road can have a car repeatedly hit the perfect apex of every turn... would you trade your steering wheel for one because you could turn faster lap times?

MT FTW!

I think that the M-DCT will be fun to drive for me. I could be wrong. I can't wait to find out.

I agree with your reduction argument that in the end it is all about driving fun.

[BK]

Originally Posted by devo

I agree with all of this, but some like the action of moving those levers. If the steering was better done by a computer and that meant not using a conventional steering wheel any more, would that mean we should adopt it? Some things are more satisfying doing it yourself. I still may eventually go the DCT route, but even if I do, I will always understand why people love a stick.

+1 This is why I drive MT, because I think it's more fun, even if I can't shift as fast as a machine.

That said, I'm on this board because I toy with the idea of upgrading to an E90 M3 down the road. If I do, I'll probably get the DCT so my wife can drive it. I'm looking forward to hearing the real-world reviews.

[Saturn]

In the end, there is no debate as to which system will perform faster/smoother shifts. Clearly a machine designed to carry out this function will do so in a much more efficient manner than a human.

The bottom line is, while a machine may be better at rowing gears, it is a matter of preference.

Thus there really is no debate, as preference cannot be instilled, and is not a resolution that can be reached by this, or any of the other countless threads that have degenerated into DCT vs 6MT flag-waving.

[rzm3]

at the end of the day, it's just a matter of personal preference. we buy cars like M3 to enjoy. and different people have different ways of enjoying driving.

hence, stop attacking each other. to the op: try the DCT, if you don't like it, get a manual for your next car. (i assume that if you can afford an M3, you are probably reasonably well off)

LAST, DRIVING A MANUAL IS NOT 'ROWING'!

[michaeldorian]

Originally Posted by cardebt

I drove SMG for 2 years in my E46 M3 and I loved it initially.* Then I thought I needed to get more involved with a car and went to* p-car with 6MT.* After a very short time I missed the SMG and still do.* I actaully was hoping the E92 M3 would have SMG, as I know what it felt like and liked it a great deal.* I am assuming the DCT will be superior in shift times and smoother.* My only fear will be that it is too smooth.* One of the joys of the SMG was the Kick in the back upon upshift with the throttle down.* I am sure the downshift will be superior to SMG which was poor (clunky) at very low speeds, but quite good when moving about the twisties.* Never really used the automatic setting and went totally mindless, the hand shifting without the use of the clutch (foot) was enough to take the anoyance out of traffic driving.* I have driven the DCT in the GTI and it was way too smooth for my liking.* However in the GTI, it is matted to a 200hp engine, so my hope and prayer, as I have ordered my M3 with DCT, is that with an extra 200+ hp will give the added kick.* I have to believe it will.* If it doesn't then I will pass on the purchase and get back in line for 6MT or pick up a e46 with SMG.

Finally someone speaking truth. I feel the exact same way. I drove my brothers A3 with DSG and it fast not it was just way to smooth. I actually enjoyed my SMGII alot.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Guys, a few FACTS (and some solid theories):

Please stop calling the M-DCT an automatic, it is a manaul transmission controlled by computer and hydraulics. The internals neither look nor operate anything like an automatic - they look and operate like a manual with two clutches in parallel. Sure just like SMG it will have an automatic mode but the automatic modes WILL be superior to all true automatics on shift times, smoothness, efficiency and performance. That is simply the nature of the beast and you do not have to have driven one to conclude this with 99.9% certainty. This is not speculation, look at VW/Audi, Bugatti, Mitsubishi and Nissan as well. The best term for a DCT or DSG is AUTOMATED MANUAL. There is no reason, especially given BMWs history, focus and capability that the M-DCT won't be the best DCT yet on the market. The Bugatti box may be stronger and lighter (and 20x the cost...) but the BMW will very likely have better software and software is one of the most important keys to DCTs.

There is still some debate on what the true feeling of very aggressive shifts with DCT will be like, this is mostly speculation because indeed no one in the journalism trades nor general public have driven one. In general implementations of DCT that have been driven are all very smooth compared to SMG (II or III). This is again an inherent part of the dual clutch design where one clutch goes in simulataneously as the other goes out (always, all shifts). This contributes to a very smooth and very fast shift. However, the engine and flywheel momentum still have to be dissipated, and depending on the setting and particulars of the DCT software (spark/fuel cut, throttle lift/re-apply, clutch speeds and phases, etc.) shifts will be more rough in the most aggressive settings while remaining silky smooth in the least agressive settings. I am quite sure that there is no way in hell it will snap/jerk anywhere close to SMG in its most agressive modes. The BMW press release does also mention that the more aggressive modes will have more of a "traditional" feel with more jerk. Just don't expect SMG like jerk, realize that simultaneous=smooth=more power to the ground=faster=less wear. I know that a perfect shift in a MT or SMG in its most aggressive mode just feels good and right and fast but it isn't, not compared to DCT. Just like we needed to accept battery powered starters, ABS, fuel injection, digital motor electronics, etc., etc., we need to accept and appreciate M-DCT for what it is. A revolutionary transmission and the future replacement for a great many MTs and ATs.



MT gives you a better feeling of rowing your own gears which is really nothing more than pushing and pulling levers with your hands and feet. Some call this driving or "the car" or whatever and sure perfected heel and toe is fun and impressive - BUT - it is not driving or "the car", is it ROWING.

And lastly machines have replaced humans in countless applications, industry, manufacaturing, robots, computers, households, EVERYWHERE. Machines and software do an immensely better job at so many tasks that humans just can not accomplish. Why do you think pushing a pedal and pulling a lever is one one-millionth as complicated as say landing a commercial aircraft in bad weather or better yet the landing the space shuttle! There are many task (obviously) where people really best computers but shifting ain't one of them.

If you couldn't tell... M-DCT FTW.

Our resident Double Clutch missionary on it, again.

You're right on virtually all counts, but in the end it's all about personal preference. No need to rant.


Best regards, south

[footie]

Originally Posted by southlight

Our resident Double Clutch missionary on it, again.

You're right on virtually all counts, but in the end it's all about personal preference. No need to rant.


Best regards, south

He is correct on almost every court but yet he is still missing the point of why some people prefer a manual. Swamp calls changing gears just pushing and pulling levers but the biggest complaint the new M3 has been given is that it's steering feel is not as good as previous versions, will swamp still be all on for the time when steering wheel is disconnected from the front wheels and replaced by computer and hydraulics. At what point does the enjoyment diminish from the experience of driving the car?

Myself I believe DCT has it's merits and one of them is automatic mode when you are either in traffic and don't really want to swap the gears yourself or you are having a lazy day, but I will always prefer the fact that I, myself am the one matching the down shift, making the quick shift when I'm on a hard lap and not just some computer and hydraulics doing the action for me.

Both camps, the all for and the against are like oil and water, they will never mixed or agree on this subject.

[eya_21]

the classic debate! it'd only stop when BMW decided to have only one kind of gearbox for their M cars...

anyways, correct me if im wrong, but i only see maintanence/part cost as the only differences between the two.. one has dual clutch, and manual tranny have one (?) havent checked realoem.com

Btw, this is my first post on this forum. hollaa.. hoping to have my e92 m3 shipped sometime July. cheers.