Our Shop car's two new friends... E90/E92 M3 twin turbo kit

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Everybody complains, but how many of you would actually buy it? Seems like most of the people in here are just looking for something interesting to read up on.


Honestly, putting a TT kit on an E9x M3 isn't too difficult (besides turbo placement), it's tuning on the OEM DME. Most of the tuning can be done as if it's a supercharger, you'd just need an electronic boost controller. Undercover Tuning (NJ) is actually looking for a volunteer E9x M3 to build a TT kit utilizing the ProEFI EMS, which would offer significantly more features better suited to a turbo kit (then tuning off the OEM DME) -- Anti-Lag from a Stop/Roll, Advanced Traction Control Strategy that reduces Ignition instead of Closing the ITBs, Complete Flex Fuel, etc.

If it's so easy then where is your set up?

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

If it's so easy then where is your set up?

I don't have the car or money to donate towards such a project. I'm also not regularly posting in this thread, complaining about the lack of updates.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

I have returned to Germany, a few days ago.

Glad to hear this

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

If it's so easy then where is your set up?

I don't have the car or money to donate towards such a project. I'm also not regularly posting in this thread, complaining about the lack of updates.


Logistically, an E9x M3 kit modeled off the APS N/A to TT Corvette Kit makes lots of sense:

Side Shot

• Vertical Intercooler with Top Exit Piping, Route to Non-Intercooled Manifold
• Bottom Exit Piping Routed to Turbos
• Redesigned Headers for Turbos (GT28/30s)
• Turbo Inlet Piping & Filters routed behind Brake Ducts
• Twin WGs Plumed Behind Turbos for Boost Control
• Twin BOVs (Or Recirc Valves) Before Turbos to Relieve Pressure (Avoid Compressor Surge)

Combined with a proper turbo EMS, you'd use all necessary universal hoses, oil/water turbo cooling, vacuum lines, etc that are standard in any N/A to TT kit. Benefits of using a ProEFI is it's already proven to work with BMW hardware in Turbo E46 M3s without ruining any OEM convenience features (wireless entry, NAV, etc).

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Dashman

^Obviously the fact that the Vette uses an OHV architecture, vs the M3's DOHC set up, means the Vette engine is smaller and more compact, which means easier routing of the turbos and plumbing.

Not to mention ECU tuning wise, the M3 is much more of a challenge.

Not seeing your point with space? I chose that picture because it illustrates that space required will be similar to the Air/Air Supercharger kits sold by Evolve, Active Autowerke, or G-Power. Let's not pretend this is the first N/A to TT conversion, on a DOHC, Front Engine, RWD car. If Manhart Racing could fit the S63 into an E92 M3 chassis, there's no reason this can't be done.

Tuning wise, I recommended a standalone for the best setup. But I would presume that Gintani is doing exactly what MaxPSI is with their factory DME E46 M3 Turbo Kit. Modify the OEM tables, alter the Sport button for a Low/High Boost Tune, and an Electronic Boost Controller.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN

The cars running just fine fellas....unfortunately so many people have sh@! On em here in this forum they are in no rush to appease the masses on here. Whether people think they have brought it on themselves or not, Gintani is alive and well, as is this TT kit. They aren't on anyone's schedule here on the forums, and being local I can stop in and I have seen em hard at work everyday on all sorts of customers requests (I.E oil cooling kit fellas I personally am happy that they don't take the time off from wrenching to constantly snap pictures and post, but maybe that's just me!

If true that's a horrible business model.

They aren't in a rush because people here have been bad-mouthing them? This would be hilarious: In the first place, people are bad mouthing them here because they--as a reputable company--posted about the creation of this new turbo setup nearly 6 months ago without ever following up with concrete details. So, instead of providing these details and re-instilling faith in the company and its products, they then decide to stop updating altogether?

Gintani isn't some messiah handing out magical turbocharger systems for free to a loyal followership. They are a company making a product that they hope to sell for a profit. They make money by serving the customer.

Unless they're a group of the independently wealthy who make this stuff in their free time, they don't have the luxury of ignoring their customer base. I don't run the company, and they're certainly entitled to promote themselves however they please.

I just think it would be funny if their "response" to the bad-mouthing is to shoot themselves in the foot by ignoring a valuable source of paying customers.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Dashman

How are you not seeing the point? One engine has clearly bigger dimensions than the other. Space fitment and heat managment are the biggest challenges to a TT setup. The e9x engine bay is already tight and adding a TT setup is a huge challenge due to space constraints.

Well reality is someone is going to TT an E9x M3 eventually, especially since they're starting to go for under $40k used.... And if Gintani's (legitimately) got a running car, they somehow found the space that you believe isn't there.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

If true that's a horrible business model.

They aren't in a rush because people here have been bad-mouthing them? This would be hilarious: In the first place, people are bad mouthing them here because they--as a reputable company--posted about the creation of this new turbo setup nearly 6 months ago without ever following up with concrete details. So, instead of providing these details and re-instilling faith in the company and its products, they then decide to stop updating altogether?

Gintani isn't some messiah handing out magical turbocharger systems for free to a loyal followership. They are a company making a product that they hope to sell for a profit. They make money by serving the customer.

Unless they're a group of the independently wealthy who make this stuff in their free time, they don't have the luxury of ignoring their customer base. I don't run the company, and they're certainly entitled to promote themselves however they please.

I just think it would be funny if their "response" to the bad-mouthing is to shoot themselves in the foot by ignoring a valuable source of paying customers.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Benefits of using a ProEFI is it's already proven to work with BMW hardware in Turbo E46 M3s without ruining any OEM convenience features (wireless entry, NAV, etc).

Standalone on E46-S54 doesn't necessarily translate to the same thing on E92-S65. For starters the throttle controls are different and CAN based on the S65. You would also have to go back to the old style knock sensors and abandon the ION controlled method on the S65. There's probably better units than ProEFI at this point anyways. Why not use the AEM Infinity instead? I'm pretty sure it can outperform the ProEFI in terms of accuracy (spark angle error) and numbers of calculations per second. I know some top Motec guys are chomping at the bit to start using the Infinity.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Well reality is someone is going to TT an E9x M3 eventually, especially since they're starting to go for under $40k used.... And if Gintani's (legitimately) got a running car, they somehow found the space that you believe isn't there.

It's easy to claim space isn't an issue until you try to mock one up to see for yourself. I have two mock up turbos directly from Tial; should be same units as Gintani. I'm even less contrained than the Gintani car because I have a dry sump. Sure we found space. But even with the extra space saved by the dry sump, turbo placement was difficult and we didn't think we could safely evacuate the heat that the turbos would generate. So we buttoned the thing back up and called it a day.

With that said, I still look forward to seeing what Gintani comes up with. I'd like to see how they handled the heat issues that concerned us. I'm hoping they succeed.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Everybody complains, but how many of you would actually buy it? Seems like most of the people in here are just looking for something interesting to read up on.


Honestly, putting a TT kit on an E9x M3 isn't too difficult (besides turbo placement), it's tuning on the OEM DME. Most of the tuning can be done as if it's a supercharger, you'd just need an electronic boost controller. Undercover Tuning (NJ) is actually looking for a volunteer E9x M3 to build a TT kit utilizing the ProEFI EMS, which would offer significantly more features better suited to a turbo kit (then tuning off the OEM DME) -- Anti-Lag from a Stop/Roll, Advanced Traction Control Strategy that reduces Ignition instead of Closing the ITBs, Complete Flex Fuel, etc.

Look man i'm all about standalones because i don't like/know how to deal with encrypted DME's. I'm familiar with cheap units such as the MS1 all the way to high end units like Pectel SQ6. Even the $6,000 Syvecs S8 aren't on par with OE DMEs. There are lots of processes and features within the stock DME\s that no standalone has. Even the old Motronic has antijudder, low rpm corrections etc... That makes them a lot more reliable and drivable. Standalones surely have lots of cool features (Pectel gives you the Rocket anti-lag system!!) but overall stock ECU's IF properly tuned, are much better.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Why not use the AEM Infinity instead? I'm pretty sure it can outperform the ProEFI in terms of accuracy (spark angle error) and numbers of calculations per second. I know some top Motec guys are chomping at the bit to start using the Infinity.

AEM is evil. I don't know about the Infinity, but the EMS was utter rubbish. I blew one engine and after checking logs it turned out it was drifting timing like crazy in higher RPM's.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Soorena

AEM is evil. I don't know about the Infinity, but the EMS was utter rubbish. I blew one engine and after checking logs it turned out it was drifting timing like crazy in higher RPM's.

I know they have a huge uphill battle to recapture their reputation. Check out the Infinity. It was designed by a start up named Engine Labs. I don't have any direct experience with it, but I've read great reviews. I inquired to Motec about using one of their units on my project and was told a certain name they consider in the top-5 Motec guys. This guy is listed on the Injector Dynamics Bad-Ass tuners page as being in the top few percent of the top 10%. I spoke to him and he tried to sell me a Motec. But when I mentioned the Infinity to him, he got really excited. He said the Infinity type design was the ECU he tried for five years to get Motec to design (to no avail). He would gladly do my project with Infinity if I wanted. As far as timing drift. I believe I was told of one test of a simulated 12-cylinder at 16000 RPMs that had less than 0.25 degree timing shift. I also heard through the grapevine that GM execs looked at it and said even their own ECU's couldn't hit timing targets as accurate as the Infinity. Anyways, check it out.

Anyways, good wishes to Gintani for this project. If they succeed, it will really liven things up!

[The Dobie]

Very nice..

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Standalone on E46-S54 doesn't necessarily translate to the same thing on E92-S65. For starters the throttle controls are different and CAN based on the S65. You would also have to go back to the old style knock sensors and abandon the ION controlled method on the S65. There's probably better units than ProEFI at this point anyways. Why not use the AEM Infinity instead? I'm pretty sure it can outperform the ProEFI in terms of accuracy (spark angle error) and numbers of calculations per second. I know some top Motec guys are chomping at the bit to start using the Infinity.

Yep, getting the CAN to work with the standalone & keep everything happy would be a challenge. But after that, setting it up for the matter isn't anything over the top -- EX: abandoning the ion knock would just require you set a knock frequency and any various other safety protection features (depending on your EMS). IMO, if you're gonna spend money, buy something that's proven -- Motec & Pectel are both used in the race world, but aren't as "street" friendly as some of the other options. Syvecs & ProEFI are really good, but Syvecs is still new to the US while ProEFI is proven -- Has powered some of the most powerful Supras, E46 M3 Turbos, powered the AMS Alpha Omega & has now become widely accepted in the Porsche Turbo Community after Evolution Motorsports used it on their Project Mayhem (997 1500+ HP Turbo) & BBi on their 996 Turbo (1400 WHP, 9k Redline, ~230 MPH at the Texas Mile recently), and is universally accepted as having the best safety features (Read up on 6Speed).

AEM Infinity is still way too new IMO, unproven, and has lots of copied tech from ProEFI -- Specifically the FlexFuel & VE Calculation Tables. Not that this is a big deal (since Motec has figured out DI, I'm sure the other players will all start reverse engineering and try to add it to their features list), but do they really understand how it works?

Not sure who you've been talking to, but I find it a bit hard to believe that Motec guys (race proven EMS, incredible customer service globally, etc) are contemplating a switch to an unproven, new AEM Infinity that's been on the market for just over a year. I know that Lab22 (CA) is big on it and has put it in some high power turbo E46 M3, most notably the Marcus' LSB.

Originally Posted by regular guy

It's easy to claim space isn't an issue until you try to mock one up to see for yourself.

You're absolutely right. That being said, if there's a market for it, someone will figure it out.

Originally Posted by Soorena

Standalones surely have lots of cool features (Pectel gives you the Rocket anti-lag system!!) but overall stock ECU's IF properly tuned, are much better.

If you can stay on stock DME it's not bad, but it depends on the setup. Obviously the fact that this is an N/A to TT conversion adds complexity to retuning the OEM DME tables. The main reason why I'd say standalone is because you can completely rewrite all the tables for a turbocharged car, with all the necessary safety parameters (knock, failing fuel pressure, etc) dialed. Engine fail-safe is where the ProEFI really outshines the competition, but to each's own.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

AEM Infinity is still way too new IMO, unproven, and has lots of copied tech from ProEFI -- Specifically the FlexFuel & VE Calculation Tables. Not that this is a big deal (since Motec has figured out DI, I'm sure the other players will all start reverse engineering and try to add it to their features list), but do they really understand how it works?

That's actually quite incorrect and that's not how the Infinity works. Infinity tables are not what most people think they are. I know the VE tables are based on straight physics calculations in the Infinity. Hard to claim anybody copied a straight physics calculation.

Not sure who you've been talking to, but I find it a bit hard to believe that Motec guys (race proven EMS, incredible customer service globally, etc) are contemplating a switch to an unproven, new AEM Infinity that's been on the market for just over a year. I know that Lab22 (CA) is big on it and has put it in some high power turbo E46 M3, most notably the Marcus' LSB.

I gave enough hints to figure out who he is and a few clicks should figure it out. If I'm not mistaken, his tuning just set the overall Texas Mile speed record. I could be mistaken about that, but I remember sending him a congratulatory email a couple months ago when I read it...and I'm pretty sure it was the overall 265 MPH record.

Last I spoke to Marcus last year, he was really hot for the Infinity too and was going to be his ECU of choice for the S65. The only question was who would get there first.

But I get your point about ProEFI. The only question is do they have an S65 solution yet?

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

But I get your point about ProEFI. The only question is do they have an S65 solution yet?

There's no harness (like they have for the Supra, 996/997 Turbo, E46 M3, etc), but Undercover Performance in NJ is looking for a donor car to a TT/ProEFI E92 M3. They'd prob wire up a universal harness, get it to work with the CAN system and see if there's enough of a market to release a harness.

Something similar could be done with Motec or the Infinity, just need a shop who can do all the fab work, tuning and feels comfortable with exploring the unknown.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

There's no harness (like they have for the Supra, 996/997 Turbo, E46 M3, etc), but Undercover Performance in NJ is looking for a donor car to a TT/ProEFI E92 M3. They'd prob wire up a universal harness, get it to work with the CAN system and see if there's enough of a market to release a harness.

Something similar could be done with Motec or the Infinity, just need a shop who can do all the fab work, tuning and feels comfortable with exploring the unknown.

That's already handled. Best of all, it's the same guys that developed the harnesses and base programming for S65 standalones from Motec, Pectel, and Siemens/Bosch (one or the other, I don't remember which they told me at the moment). Infinity would be their fourth S65 standalone project. I know they package up the kits and base programming and sell them to others. I'm not sure if they're the guys supplying VAC, but kinda I presume they are.

[GabeS]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Undercover Performance in NJ is looking for a donor car to a TT/ProEFI E92 M3. .

tell them to give me a call, I will gladly drive my car out to NJ for this.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I know they have a huge uphill battle to recapture their reputation. Check out the Infinity. It was designed by a start up named Engine Labs. I don't have any direct experience with it, but I've read great reviews. I inquired to Motec about using one of their units on my project and was told a certain name they consider in the top-5 Motec guys. This guy is listed on the Injector Dynamics Bad-Ass tuners page as being in the top few percent of the top 10%. I spoke to him and he tried to sell me a Motec. But when I mentioned the Infinity to him, he got really excited. He said the Infinity type design was the ECU he tried for five years to get Motec to design (to no avail). He would gladly do my project with Infinity if I wanted. As far as timing drift. I believe I was told of one test of a simulated 12-cylinder at 16000 RPMs that had less than 0.25 degree timing shift. I also heard through the grapevine that GM execs looked at it and said even their own ECU's couldn't hit timing targets as accurate as the Infinity. Anyways, check it out.

I guess you are talking about Neel. If the Infinity is recommended by him, then i'm in no place to doubt it. I will definitely check it out.

[Billj747]

Would require a little work like any other system but what about the Motec M1:

http://www.motec.com.au/m1/m1overview/

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Soorena

I guess you are talking about Neel. If the Infinity is recommended by him, then i'm in no place to doubt it. I will definitely check it out.

Neel's not the Motec tuner I was talking about. But yes, Neel has a large chunk of my money to develop harnesses and tuning for S65 and Infinity. My plans are to use the Motec guy for fine tuning on top of Neel's work. I believe Neel has already used Infinity in a few projects.

BTW, when I looked at using Motec, the hardware quote was right at ~$20k. The problem with Motec is they nickel and dime you for every feature and every module you need. I see Bill has the link to the Motec M1. I know we looked at that...but I don't think that was going to work for us...sorry I don't remember why any longer.

Bringing this back to Gintani. I think they should also try a standalone for the S65. That would be a great project. Maybe one of their S65 turbo customers would want to go that route. It's a great way to get one of these beasts on an engine dyno and see what it really has; then put it on the Dynojet and see what it makes to the wheels. It would be another great project to watch.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by GabeS

tell them to give me a call, I will gladly drive my car out to NJ for this.

Presuming you're serious, Undercover isn't a forum sponsor but Garth is the head of the shop (they're an Evolve vendor, but I don't think we list that stuff here). Here's the shops phone number (856-382-7543) and email: undercovertuning@me.com